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| As of now, a majority of people have this idea that Todd is the most powerful Scott Pilgrim character and that nobody scales to him. This blog is here to debunk this idea since it's getting increasingly annoying facing the same arguments over and over again. For those who aren't aware, we currently have Scott Pilgrim characters scaling to [[Todd Ingram|Todd Ingram's]] [http://imgur.com/gallery/0RU4mjK moon punching feat] [http://imgur.com/gallery/eyHqZVQ throughout the series], which was calculated to be [https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:ThePerpetual/More_Moon_Punching_By_Todd_Ingram 4.0353 Petatons of TNT, or '''6-A''']. While nobody has objected to them on this wiki, it has been a hot topic in various social media servers.
| | [[File:Valere Sea of Stars Official Render.png|right|425px]] |
| | {{Quote|I wouldn’t overthink it. Prophecies are not swayed by the attention we give them.|Valere to [[Zale (Sea of Stars)|Zale]]}} |
| | ==Background== |
| | '''Valere''' is one of the main protagonists of ''Sea of Stars'' and is a Solstice Warrior. Born on the Winter Solstice, Valere trained most of her life to become a follower of Luana and would become a lunar monk. Upon finishing their training, Valere and [[Zale (Sea of Stars)|Zale]] were sent to Wraith Island to meet up with fellow remaining Solstice Warriors, [[Headmaster Moraine]], [[Erlina (Sea of Stars)|Erlina]], and [[Brugaves (Sea of Stars)|Brugaves]], to defeat the Dweller of Woe. |
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| If anyone has any disagreements with this blog or would like to share their thoughts and feelings surrounding this topic, please leave them in the comments which will be public (Although I don't expect many to say anything). Critism and suggestions are allowed as long as they follow Fandom guidelines (I'll also try and update the blog when new refutes pop up to keep this page as relevant as possible). And please do not send entire documents of information and expect me to refute/address it, that's just annoying and a waste of time.
| | {| class="mw-collapsible mw-collapsed wikitable" |
| | ! style="text-align:left;" |This dropdown contains the synopsis of Valere's story. Read at your own risk as you may be spoiled otherwise! |
| | |- |
| | |<div class="scrollable" style="overflow:auto; max-height:600px; width:{{{width|100%}}}; -moz-border-radius-topleft:0.5em; border:1px solid #AAAAAA; padding-left:0.5em; background:transparent;"> |
| | <font size=5> '''Early Life''' </font size> |
| | <br> |
| | Valere was born on the Winter Solstice that took place shortly after the battle between the Solstice Warriors and Dweller of Strife, and was one of two Solstice Children born. Valere grew up and was raised for nearly the first decade of her life in the secluded town of Mooncradle, where she would train with Zale and Garl around the town in preparation for their Solstice Training. |
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| =='''Author and Official Statements'''==
| | After an expedition outside of Mooncradle, [[Brugaves (Sea of Stars)|Brugaves]] and [[Erlina (Sea of Stars)|Erlina]] greet Valere and Zale and test their physical and magical growth before meeting with [[Headmaster Moraine (Sea of Stars)|Headmaster Moraine]]. This encourages Valere, Zale, and Garl to approach the Forbidden Cavern Gate and open it with their small amount of magic. |
| ==='''Clash at Demonhead Extras'''===
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| To start, we have [http://imgur.com/gallery/TCms2HM Todd's character draft description]. This comes from the extra content pages in volume 2 about the Clash At Demonhead (It basically shares Bryan's thoughts during development and how he envisioned the characters).
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| {{Quote|He turned out to be bigger, stronger, and more powerful than Scott, but equally dumb, or even dumber.|Bryan}}
| | Having successfully opened the gateway entrance, the three children enter the cavern with the hopes of impressing the Headmaster. This unfortunately proved to be a big mistake, as monsters swarmed and overwhelmed the three. In an attempt to protect Zale while he tried to use offensive magic, Garl was impaled in the eye by one of the hostile creatures, permanently blinding his left eye. |
| | </div> |
| | |} |
| | ==General Information== |
| | '''Name:''' Valere |
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| [[File:The Clash At Demonhead Charater Drafts.jpg||center|400px]] | | '''Origin:''' [[The Messenger#Sea_of_Stars|Sea of Stars]] |
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| Now there are several issues with this that I feel a lot of people blatantly ignore or just don't understand. For starters, the actual context of this statement refers to Todd's [http://imgur.com/gallery/HmS0ZUI telekinetic-based] [http://imgur.com/gallery/KvZHbaf ranged] [http://imgur.com/gallery/Rq2xxO0 abilities]. Todd doesn't actually ever fight Scott physically (Except at Honest Eds, which we'll touch upon later) and just uses his vegan powers from a safe distance. In both instances shown here, Scott misses and Todd responds by throwing him with his telekinesis. At best, this proves Todd has superior lifting strength, which means nothing in comparison to both's raw attack potency.
| | '''First Appearance:''' Sea of Stars |
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| <gallery type="slideshow" widths="400" position="center">
| | '''Latest Appearance:''' |
| File:Todd Fight 1-1.jpg|Scott begins to throw a punch
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| File:Todd Fight 1-2.jpg|Todd dodges and activates his vegan powers
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| File:Todd Fight 1-3.jpg|Todd telekinetically restrains Scott
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| File:Todd Fight 1-4.jpg|Then he begins to lift Scott in the air, choking him
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| File:Todd Fight 1-5.jpg|Todd then proceeds to throw Scott through the wall
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| File:Todd Fight 1-6.jpg|He explains how vegan powers work to Scott and co
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| </gallery>
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| Secondly, as shown in the first scan, Todd goes out of his way to dodge Scott's punches. While this could be because he finds getting hit annoying/inconvient (A common argument used to dismiss this), [http://imgur.com/gallery/q4jB6cM several other instances in the] [http://imgur.com/gallery/2TdifLw volume show otherwise]. Him dodging these attacks are because he is more than aware of how strong Scott and co is, which directly affects how he chooses to fight Scott (Something Scott even says himself).
| | '''Company:''' Sabotage Studio |
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| <gallery type="slideshow" widths="400" position="center">
| | '''Creator:''' Bryce Kho |
| File:Todd Fight 3-1.jpg|Envy kicks Todd in the balls
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| File:Todd Fight 3-2.jpg|Todd then blasts Envy back with an energy beam
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| File:Todd Fight 3-3.jpg|Scott then lands a successful blow on Todd with his guitar
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| </gallery>
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| Another thing to point out about the second statement is that O’Malley compares them to Ryu and Ken, who are rivals around the same level of power, so all this would imply is that Todd is somewhat more powerful, but not to an extent that would put him above Scott’s league by entire tiers, which is shown towards the ending of volume three.
| | '''Sex:''' Female |
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| ==='''Bryan's Tumblr Statement'''===
| | '''Sexuality:''' '''Unknown''' |
| Next off, we have [https://radiomaru.tumblr.com/post/46266669758/how-come-todd-ingram-didnt-kill-scott-in-the Bryan's statement from tumbler which is fairly similar to the first one]
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| {{Quote|Matthew went all-out because he sucks. Todd would never go all-out. If he went all-out, he wouldn’t be Todd. Todd is a smarmy jerk who wants to toy with Scott and feel cool and superior without trying. That’s the point of Todd.|Bryan's Answer}}
| | '''Pronouns:''' She/Her |
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| [[File:Bryan's Tumblr Answer Scott Pilgrim.jpg|center|235px]]
| | '''Story Role:''' Hero/Main Protagonist |
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| First off, let's take a look at the original question here.
| | '''Age:''' 18-19 |
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| {{Quote|''"How come Todd Ingram didn't kill Scott in the beginning of volume 3? If he can punch a hole in the moon, couldn't he have finished off Scott the moment they met? At least Matthew Patel made the effort to go all-out in their first meeting.|Original Question}}
| | '''Residence:''' Mooncradle |
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| So based on the way the commenter views Todd, it's clear he doesn't see Scott or Matthew as any more than an average joe (Less in Matthew's case) who happens to know martial arts, which Bryan seems to follow along with. So by accepting what Bryan says about Todd, you alternatively accept Scott and Matthew as an average human martial artist.
| | '''Classification:''' Lunar Monk, Luana |
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| ''"That's a massive assumption on your end. We don't know what either Bryan or the reader are thinking."'' | | '''Species:''' Human, Winter Solstice Child |
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| To a degree, this is true. However, we are expecting a casual reader and author to understand vs debating rules such as tiers, area of effect, scaling, and outliers. Of course they're going to say the dude who makes massive explosions is stronger. Heck, our [https://debatesjungle.fandom.com/wiki/Creation_vs_Destruction#Disclaimer Creation vs Destruction page paints this picture very clearly]. They don't even bother to mention some of the feats Matthew does that no normal person could physically do (We'll cover those later). Instead he decides to mock Matthew for it.
| | '''[[State of Being]]:''' '''Regular''' prior to her ascension, '''[[Enlightenment]]''' after her ascension |
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| Furthermore, even if Bryan was right about his character's stats, his answer directly contradicts Todd's character (And the previous statement from the character extras). He's never shown to act cocky to the point of [http://imgur.com/gallery/q4jB6cM holding back to Scott's level] [http://imgur.com/gallery/JnNS3Ko or to torture Scott for fun], nor has this been stated by him or anyone else (There are even times where Todd is putting a significant amount of effort into competing against Scott).
| | '''[[Physiology]]:''' '''Humanoid Physiology''' |
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| <gallery type="slideshow" widths="400" position="center">
| | '''Occupation:''' Solstice Warrior, Lunar Monk, Follower of Luana |
| File:Todd Fight 3-6.jpg|Crash and the Boys block Todd's attack
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| File:Todd Fight 3-7.jpg|Scott then jumps forward and strikes at Todd
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| File:Todd Fight 3-8.jpg|Todd blocks the attack and sends a shockwave, sending everyone flying flying
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| </gallery>
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| Funny enough, who Bryan was really referring to in this question was Envy, who wanted to torment Scott for the sake of pleasure at their first meeting. It even says at the beginning of the volume that Todd [http://imgur.com/gallery/MogzfCc doesn't want to make Scott suffer and just wants to end the fight as soon as possible]. And as shown later, this is not because Todd thinks Scott is a joke in terms of physical abilities.
| | '''Affiliations:''' |
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| [[File:Scott Pilgrim Volume 3 Black Boxes.jpg|center|265px]]
| | '''Enemies:''' |
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| So not only is Bryan's answer a bad representation of the character's physical stats and mockery to some of his characters, he outright contradicts the morality of the antagonist for this volume and previous answers, which is blatant [https://allthetropes.fandom.com/wiki/Death_of_the_Author Death of the Author]. And this isn't even everything Bryan's answer contradicts, we'll get to that soon.
| | '''[[Status]]:''' Has been both '''Alive''' and '''Deceased''' ([https://youtu.be/jIUMZfTeMh8?si=nRLDJFGA_CZny2nd&t=7465 Due to] [[Resh'an]] [https://youtu.be/nIJ0kak0PdY?si=YQb1KyxLbcOPDVMd&t=7129 having split the timeline into an infinitely expanding plethora of alternate timelines], [https://youtu.be/jIUMZfTeMh8?si=nRLDJFGA_CZny2nd&t=7356 there exist countless worlds where Valere and Zale failed to defeat the Dweller of Strife in combat], [https://youtu.be/nIJ0kak0PdY?si=YQb1KyxLbcOPDVMd&t=6645 with them only having stalemated it due to Resh'an getting involved in their conflict], [https://youtu.be/e8xp0hONji0?si=G24e0QJJ7W6PYFVf&t=4801 which furthered their journey and allowed them to ascend into Solen and Luana]) |
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| =='''Arguments against Scott Scalin'''g==
| | '''[[Alignment]]:''' '''Neutral Good''' ([https://youtu.be/7fFx6Emvdso?si=cDUp0hI055anwhV0&t=2826 Valere is one who follows the path of Luana], [https://youtu.be/7fFx6Emvdso?si=yt25TjUED2156qJN&t=2252 and thus follows her intended destiny as a Solstice Warrior to forever protect her world]. [https://youtu.be/jIUMZfTeMh8?si=nKXV1qxXoER6B2WV&t=7349 She will often put her own life on the line in order to save others], [https://youtu.be/dZGEilGoCn4?si=aErqTjYD0haZIEPB&t=6459 and even crossed the Sea of Stars in order to save Seraï's world and face the Fleshmancer]. [https://youtu.be/oKXutBL0UL8?si=x6afaj92MG9MrOJA&t=5310 Helped relocate the people of Port Town of Brisk when the Dweller of Strife was resurrected and saved countless lives]. [https://youtu.be/6yI1OII1AW4?si=IjDPepe3z_O66svM Defeated every dweller] [https://youtu.be/G-5Jn_zGys4?si=QrtcQ82dc92wvTme in her own world] [https://youtu.be/19pAsZ8VrDY?si=2yVdd8Y6VrFh8w3o and Seraï's world], [https://youtu.be/jIUMZfTeMh8?si=nKXV1qxXoER6B2WV&t=7349 therefore saving the lives of everyone from their terror had they turned into World Eaters]. [https://youtu.be/dZGEilGoCn4?si=AGcE9dmxZGoL5cws&t=720 Alongside Garl in his dying moments], [https://youtu.be/dZGEilGoCn4?si=-YyZchWq8ulHVATV&t=5119 Valere helped wake and pacify The Sleeper from its destructive ways]) |
| ==='''Todd is only continental with his Vegan Powers'''===
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| I honestly have no idea where this idea spawned from (Pretty sure it originated from vsbw downgrade threads). It's established in the flashbacks that Todd [http://imgur.com/gallery/eyHqZVQ went to vegan academy in order to learn the vegan techniques we see him use in volume 3].
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| {{Quote|Soon enough, the boy had to leave for the faraway school where he would learn the ancient secrets of his people, The Vegans. There on the train platform, the boy and girl vowed Always To Be True and Never To Waver.|[[Envy Adams (Scott Pilgrim)|Envy Adams]]}}
| | '''[[Protection Level]]:''' '''Multiversal Protector''' (Not only defeated all the Dwellers in her timeline, but also bested the Dweller of Dread in Seraï's timeline, and later bested the Fleshmancer who is a threat to the entire multiverse) |
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| [[File:Envy Flashback 1-3.jpg|center|265px]]
| | ==Codex Statistics== |
| | '''Key:''' '''Child''' | '''Pre-Awakening''' |'''Post-Awakening''' | '''Luana''' |
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| ''"But we see the energy from Todd's vegan powers when he punches the moon, that makes your previous argument irrelevant."'' | | '''[[Tiering System|Tier]]:''' '''10-C''', '''Higher''' with Magic | At least '''9-B''', '''Higher''' with Magic, '''Unknown''' when empowered by a solar eclipse | '''5-B''', '''Higher''' when transformed | '''Unknown''' |
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| No we do not. We see the shockwave created from his punch before it hits the planet. And why are we suddenly throwing out the already established timeline and events for this incredibly headcanon? The only thing established in the flashbacks hinting this is that Todd was [http://imgur.com/gallery/2crSdK4 already a vegan], which is what's '''required''' to even get into Vegan Academy in the first place.
| | '''[[Dimensionality]]:''' '''3-D''' |
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| [[File:Ramona Flashback 1-1.jpg|center|265px]] | | '''[[Attack Potency]]:''' '''Below Average Human level''' ([https://youtu.be/7fFx6Emvdso?si=7HCM7disgtYJe8AF&t=900 At this point in her life], [https://youtu.be/7fFx6Emvdso?si=RkRmvjJoOqw8qENM&t=748 Valere has only just begun using magic and is physically just a young girl]), '''Higher''' with magic ([https://youtu.be/7fFx6Emvdso?si=3_tRn6ZJXiZUuRx0&t=5943 Magic in Sea of Stars can amplify the user's power output in combat]) | At least '''Wall level''' ([https://youtu.be/7fFx6Emvdso?si=obFIGt2ZUwvsggA9&t=1764 Valere and Zale have now trained for nearly a decade of their lives] [https://youtu.be/7fFx6Emvdso?si=YqU0wBa9j3LSF9yV&t=6677 and have grown far stronger to the point of being deemed Solstice Warriors by the Elder Mist], [https://youtu.be/7fFx6Emvdso?si=oNYBcMmcqS7N9MJc&t=3412 and were able to fight and defeat the Bosslug which can shake the entire cavern]. [https://youtu.be/7fFx6Emvdso?si=vxUII2VjU4D7Bqsl&t=4142 Alongside Garl], [https://youtu.be/aj8RttIxhfE?si=Lzc6eoJlMzqVmUXd&t=5860 Valere and Zale were able to best Malkomud and his pet salamander Rockie], [https://youtu.be/aj8RttIxhfE?si=RIjvgpIBQyGYiAOh&t=4447 the latter of which can burrow through rock at high speeds]. [https://youtu.be/e8xp0hONji0?si=nHkDRgAVx0i-hNWH&t=1646 Can destroy reinforced metal walls with little difficulty]), '''Higher''' with [[Magic|magic]] ([https://youtu.be/7fFx6Emvdso?si=XlBnPMK2TSlobjF0&t=5786 After learning how to "Use magic without using magic"], [https://youtu.be/7fFx6Emvdso?si=3_tRn6ZJXiZUuRx0&t=5943 Valere learned how to physically empower and amplify her power in combat]) | '''Planet level''' ([https://youtu.be/e8xp0hONji0?si=8dbuGU9CuyR7Kqcb&t=4799 By this point in her journey], [https://youtu.be/e8xp0hONji0?si=4Q0Is0mgIlm6KKgv&t=3912 Valere and Zale have become fully connected to their potential and are powerful enough to best the Dweller of Dread without an eclipse to increase their power]. [https://youtu.be/e8xp0hONji0?si=BxkaT68s_UQV4tsK&t=4822 She and Zale together were able to pull the moon out of the ocean and back into space]. [https://youtu.be/f5-AWPdiMfQ?si=SYF5RpRRKmyo-IlF&t=4210 Defeated the Fleshmancer in the form of a World Eater], [ which are capable of consuming entire planets]) | '''Unknown''' ([ It is stated that once a Solstice Warrior ascends], [ their timeline is permanently saved with no force being able to oppose them], [ with the only known exception being to weaken their influence through the people's belief]) |
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| Furthermore, the vegan powers have to be manually acquired from outside sources. This was the [http://imgur.com/gallery/2WbCGFL entire reason why he had his powers taken away from the Vegan Police]. So even if he went to Vegan Academy to screw around, he still couldn't have had them in high school. Heck, even if he did, we see [https://youtu.be/vqqGZBRBLcM?t=1m08s his hair isn't even standing up during the process] as shown in the movie (The movie is just as credible as the original, as the feat is a direct recreation of the comic's take and was [https://scottpilgrim.fandom.com/wiki/Bryan_Lee_O%27Malley#:~:text=He%20is%20currently%20writing%20the,and%20published%20by%20Image%20Comics.&text=O'Malley%20also%20helped%20Edgar,as%20Lee's%20Palace%20Bar%20patrons directed by Bryan himself]).
| | '''[[Durability]]:''' |
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| | '''[[Striking Strength]]:''' |
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| <gallery type="slideshow" widths="400" position="center">
| | '''[[Lifting Strength]]:''' |
| File:Vegan Police 1-1.jpg|The Vegan Police show up
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| File:Vegan Police 1-2.jpg|They explain Todd's charges
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| File:Vegan Police 1-3.jpg|Todd reveals he lied to keep his powers
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| File:Vegan Police 1-4.jpg|Todd tries to avoid the De-Veganizing Ray
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| </gallery>
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| ==='''Todd is only continental physically'''===
| | '''[[Speed|Travel Speed]]:''' |
| I don't really see how this debunks Scott scaling when it's shown that him and others can damage Todd. I'm assuming that this debunk hinges on those incidents being outliers which we'll address later. So the first reason for the two not scaling is the difference in destructive radius. Now if we assume that area of effect damage equates to higher power, we are now accepting bullets being weaker than a human punch. Confused? Look no further than our [https://debatesjungle.fandom.com/wiki/Attack_Potency Attack potency Page].
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| {{Quote|To explain this, take a hypothetical example of someone punching through an interior wall vs. bullet being shot at an interior wall wall. If a bullet is shot at a wall, the wall would have a small hole go through it, however if a person punches through a wall, a big hole would be left in place due to the size of the hand, with the logic of ignoring one's energy output in place for area of effect, the person's punch would in that scenario be stronger then a bullet.}}
| | '''[[Speed|Combat Speed]]:''' |
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| <gallery type="slideshow" widths="400" position="center">
| | '''[[Reactions|Reaction Speed]]:''' |
| File:Wall.jpg|The size of bullet holes in a wall
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| File:Main-qimg-dce81bb13e15672bece644ec3d2b392f.jpg|The size of a hole made by a human fist
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| </gallery>
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| Real world logic debunks this mindset. But even if this wasn't the case, this argument would debunk 90% of arguments that involve scaling. [[Son Goku (Dragon Ball)|Son Goku]] wouldn't even surpass planet since he doesn't destroy a planet, or effortlessly destroy the battlefield while fighting his opponents. Same with [[Mario]] being Low 2-C.
| | '''[[Stamina]]:''' |
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| ''"Even with all of this, where is it stated that Todd's powers are relative to his AP? You conveniently ignored that."'' | | '''[[Range]]:''' |
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| I don't know why we'd assume they're weaker than his base stats since it's never established, or even hinted at, that they are weaker in terms of energy output. Especially when this is the same Todd who went out of his way to earn these powers despite [http://imgur.com/gallery/2WbCGFL not obeying the rules for vegans], and has a mental breakdown when he loses them, I find it extremely hard to believe they are weaker. Heck, he even uses the vegan powers as an [http://imgur.com/gallery/pC1mfNY extension of his own physical attacks]. It would be an even bigger assumption to assume they are conveniently weaker than Todd's stupidly casual continental AP.
| | '''[[Intelligence]]:''' |
| | <tabber> |
| | |-|General Intelligence= |
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| [[File:Bass Battle SPvtW.jpg|265px]]
| | |-|Social Intelligence= |
| [[File:Todd Fight 3-4.jpg|265px]]
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| ==='''It's an outlier in the verse'''=== | | |-|Strategic Intelligence= |
| This is easily the most common argument against the scaling, and it mainly comes from people who have no understanding of what an outlier is. For a quick summary, outliers are abnormal inconsistencies commonly used in math (Surprise, this term wasn't invented by vs debaters). What people don't know is that feats [https://debatesjungle.fandom.com/wiki/Outlier#Common_Misconceptions_of_Outliers higher than utter casual feats demotes the outlier argument], since it's no longer an abnormal feat. I'll pull up a few feats in the volumes to prove this.
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| ===='''Matthew Patel punches through a ceiling'''==== | | |-|Combat Intelligence= |
| The first feat comes from the first evil exe, [[Matthew Patel]]. In his introduction, he is seen [http://imgur.com/gallery/7vBr9xY breaking through the ceiling of Club Rockit by pointing his finger]. Mind you, Scott proceeds to body Matthew Patel, who wasn't even in a mood to fight during this time.
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| <gallery type="slideshow" widths="400" position="center"> | | </tabber> |
| File:Matthew Fight 1-1.jpg|Matthew effortlessly taps and destroys the ceiling of the Rockit
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| File:Matthew Fight 1-2.jpg|Scott blocks and counterattacks Matthew with ease
| | == [[Powers and Techniques]] == |
| File:Matthew Fight 1-3.jpg|He then kicks Matthew, leading into a combo
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| File:Matthew Fight 1-4.jpg|Scott begins to juggle Matthew in the air
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| File:Matthew Fight 1-5.jpg|Ending the combo, Scott spikes Matthew down to the ground
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| </gallery>
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| There are also other feats in the movie and video game of Matthew doing casual feats like incinerating multiple people, but I feel this alone is a strong enough opening for this section.
| | ---- |
| | ===[[Equipment]]=== |
| | <tabber> |
| | |-|Standard= |
| | {{#tag:Tabber| |
| | {{!}}-{{!}}On Hand= |
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| ===='''Scott launches someone around the world'''==== | | {{!}}-{{!}}Equipment= |
| Next, we have Scott [http://imgur.com/gallery/gGhiPBV punching someone around the planet] (A feat that was [https://debatesjungle.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:GiverOfThePeace/Standard_Calc_for_Punching_Someone_Around_the_World calculated to be 8-A by] [[User:GiverOfThePeace|GiverOfThePeace]], which is a considerably generous low-end), which Stephen Stills confirms to be true. This was done by a very early Scott Pilgrim, who treated the incident as something unimpressive (You'll notice this pattern throughout the next few feats).
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| [[File:Scott Pilgrim Advertisement.jpg|center|265px]]
| | }} |
| | |-|Optional= |
| | {{#tag:Tabber| |
| | {{!}}-{{!}}Optional Equipment= |
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| ===='''Ramona effortlessly tears a metal pole apart'''==== | | {{!}}-{{!}}One Use Equipment= |
| Ramona [http://imgur.com/gallery/YhyNG3B rips a steel beam from its hinges]. Yet another utter casual feat. Even Stacey Pilgrim and random civilians aren't surprised with Ramona's strength. And Stacey was more upset with Ramona damaging the building (Another reason why these characters aren't dropping nuclear explosions consuming all of Toronto).
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| <gallery type="slideshow" widths="400" position="center">
| | }} |
| File:Knives Pre-Fight 1-1.jpg|Ramona spots Knives in an extremely calm manor
| | |-|Discarded= |
| File:Knives Pre-Fight 1-2.jpg|She tears the steel beam and walks back to where Knives will land
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| File:Knives Pre-Fight 1-3.jpg|The two clash with both having no struggle
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| </gallery>
| |
|
| |
|
| ===='''Knives jumps several stories in seconds'''====
| | </tabber> |
| Moving on, we have Knives [http://imgur.com/gallery/BhYkxyo jumping several stories with no visible difficulty or strain]. Basically the same as Ramona's feat, only she had taken several physical blows from Ramona that visibly stunned her, thus she was physically weakened while doing this.
| | ---- |
|
| |
|
| <gallery type="slideshow" widths="400" position="center">
| | ===Notable Techniques=== |
| File:Knives Escape 1-1.jpg|Knives gets hit by Ramona, stunning her.
| | ---- |
| File:Knives Escape 1-2.jpg|She makes her escape and jumps several floors in the mall.
| | ==Other== |
| File:Knives Escape 1-3.jpg|Before leaving, she throws a dagger at Ramona insulting her.
| |
| </gallery>
| |
|
| |
|
| Afterwards, Ramona and Stacey aren't even shocked by a random teenage girl jumping several stories and are more concerned about who Scott dates, further establishing that fights like these aren't all that major or impressive (Shown later when kids even younger than Knives are competing with Todd's vegan powers.
| | '''Standard Tactics:''' |
|
| |
|
| ==='''Scott was losing the whole time'''===
| | '''Weaknesses:''' |
| Even if we play devil's advocate and assume Scott was losing to Todd in a physical one-on-one, this only suggest Scott would downscale (Something we do for countless characters here, and in vs debating in general), which still puts him in the same range of AP as Todd. Regardless, it's directly stated why and how Scott was losing, which came down to Todd's [http://imgur.com/gallery/JnNS3Ko range which Scott says is why he can't land any blows].
| |
|
| |
|
| [[File:Todd Fight 3-8.jpg|center|265px]]
| | ==Explanations== |
|
| |
|
| {{Quote|I can't even get near him! I need some kind of...like...last minute, poorly-set-up Deux Ex Machina!|Scott Pilgrim}}
| | ==Miscellaneous Feats== |
| | <tabber> |
| | |-|Attack Potency= |
|
| |
|
| Add on that Scott, and characters like Envy, managed to physically harm Todd and tank attacks from him. Lastly, character such as [[Gideon Graves]] are directly implied to have [http://imgur.com/gallery/78s3dYH power capable of nuking the entire west coast of Canada], along with even being called an "Ultradimensional super villain" which is [http://imgur.com/gallery/Zpsuzii directly supported by his battle in Subspace], which further proves that Todd isn't just some oddball character who's leagues greater than the rest of the cast.
| | |-|Durability= |
|
| |
|
| <gallery type="slideshow" widths="400" position="center">
| | |-|Lifting Strength= |
| File:Scott Pilgrim Character Bios.jpg|Gideon's bio alludes to his destructive potential
| |
| File:Gideon Subspace 1-1.jpg|Scott enters Ramona's Subspace.
| |
| File:Gideon Subspace 1-2.jpg|Gideon mocks Scott's inferiority.
| |
| File:Gideon Subspace 1-3.jpg|He explains how he's unbeatable in Subspace
| |
| File:Gideon Subspace 1-4.jpg|Along with Ramona making him stronger based on what she wants.
| |
| </gallery>
| |
|
| |
|
| =='''Analyzing each of Todd's interactions with the cast'''==
| | |-|Striking Strength= |
| ==='''Scott no-sells a vegan nuke from an enraged Todd'''===
| |
| Ignoring the other times Scott is fighting and tanking attacks from Todd, this is the first major blow Scott endures from Todd, which is his [http://imgur.com/gallery/kNZykhE vegan nuke that destroyed Honest Eds].
| |
|
| |
|
| <gallery type="slideshow" widths="400" position="center">
| | |-|Speed= |
| File:Todd Fight 2-5.jpg|Todd drops his weapon and begins to have a mental breakdown.
| | {{#tag:tabber| |
| File:Todd Fight 2-6.jpg|He then experiences multiple flashbacks, causing him distress.
| | {{!}}-{{!}}Travel Speed= |
| File:Todd Fight 2-7.jpg|Todd starts unleashing his attack causing the building to shake.
| |
| File:Todd Fight 2-8.jpg|The outside of Honest Eds is shown with the energy from Todd pouring out.
| |
| File:Todd Fight 2-9.jpg|The building collapses with Scott and Todd completely unharmed.
| |
| </gallery>
| |
|
| |
|
| ''"Scott didn't tank an explosion. It was directly shown to be an implosion which only collapsed the building."''
| | {{!}}-{{!}}Combat Speed= |
|
| |
|
| Let's play devil's advocate real quick and assume that the energy Todd exerted was purely an implosion as people say. Why does that refute Scott tanking an attack from Todd? Implosions reduce volume, unlike explosions which expand volume, that would mean Scott is tanking continental levels of pressure from Todd. The next best argument is that the "implosion" didn't affect Scott, but damaged and collapsed the building? This literally makes no sense. We directly see everyone in Honest Eds die after the explosion
| | {{!}}-{{!}}Reaction Speed= |
|
| |
|
| Also, assuming Todd's energy blast was an implosion because it says "Honest Eds imploded" is a horrible assumption. Are we just forgetting that [https://youtu.be/yOE8H_1Dhz4?t=0m58s regular explosions can cause buildings to implode]? This makes far more sense given we see beams of light leaking out of the building's cracks as it's crumbling. And at that point, there'd be no way for the attack to perfectly miss Scott.
| | }} |
|
| |
|
| ==='''Envy Kicks Todd in the balls'''=== | | |-|Intelligence= |
| Next up, we have Envy [http://imgur.com/gallery/q4jB6cM delivering a kick to Todd after she caught him cheating].
| |
|
| |
|
| [[File:Todd Fight 3-1.jpg|center|265px]]
| | |-|Movement= |
|
| |
|
| "''It was directly said afterwards that Envy hit Todd's weak spot, thus it shouldn't be used as a feat.''"
| | |-|Agility= |
|
| |
|
| Yes, it is Todd's weak spot. This is also the same for every man with genitals given they are the most sensitive part of the male body. I don't know why we're assuming this is a weak spot entire tiers lower than Todd's own tier. And if this really was the kind of weak spot that allowed the characters to one-shot Todd, why didn't Scott do this right after? Why did Ramona never bring this up when Scott needed ways to defeat Todd?
| | |-|Miscellaneous= |
|
| |
|
| ==='''Scott hits Todd enough to make him bleed'''===
| | </tabber> |
| Here we have Scott [http://imgur.com/gallery/q4jB6cM hitting Todd hard enough to make him bleed] (Which was right after he hit Envy and started getting pissed). This is another solid feat that commonly gets dismissed for laughable reasons.
| |
|
| |
|
| [[File:Todd Fight 3-3.jpg|center|265px]]
| | ==Trivia== |
|
| |
|
| The biggest point is that because Todd was off guard, his durability suddenly dropped entire tiers and point to [https://youtu.be/bbdCt9ZEhbE?t=0m15s Goku nearly dying to a laser beam] as if dragon ball is what sets the standards for vs debating. For starters, Dragon Ball in general is a false equivalence to use given how [https://dragonball.fandom.com/wiki/Ki#Ki_control Ki control works in the Dragon Ball universe].
| | ==Gallery== |
|
| |
|
| {{Quote|Most beings cannot freely control their ki, but many who can manipulate it also learn to control the flow of ki within their bodies, allowing them to channel larger or smaller amounts of their ki reserves. In essence, they can adjust their strength to match the situation, and generate attacks which contain larger concentrations of ki than they are normally capable of. This ability is noted by Raditz when fighting Goku and Piccolo; whilst they had power levels of 416 and 408 respectively, their special attacks channelled such high levels of ki that they measured at 924 and 1,480. Despite being common amongst Earth's martial artists, this ability seems to be exceedingly rare in general, as the Frieza Force are continually surprised by the ability of Gohan, Krillin and the others to raise and suppress their power levels at will.|Dragon ball Fandom Wiki}}
| | ==Battle Records== |
| | <tabber> |
| | |-|Victories= |
| | None. |
|
| |
|
| With that, the only plausible explanation for something as dumb as a durability drop this massive is if his vegan powers were like Ki and amplified his stats on command, and nowhere has something as extraordinary as this ever been established in the universe, and would contradict the original moon punch feat which had nothing to do with his powers.
| | |-|Losses= |
| | None. |
|
| |
|
| ==='''Scott headbutts and defeats Todd'''===
| | |-|Inconclusive= |
| At the end of the battle, Scott [http://imgur.com/gallery/2TdifLw headbutts Todd and defeats him].
| | None. |
| | </tabber> |
|
| |
|
| <gallery type="slideshow" widths="400" position="center">
| | ==References== |
| File:Todd's Defeat 1-1.jpg|Todd loses his powers and has a meltdown.
| | <nowiki>{{scroll box|content={{reflist|2}}}}</nowiki> |
| File:Todd's Defeat 1-2.jpg|Scott headbutts Todd, defeating him.
| | |} |
| File:Todd's Defeat 1-3.jpg|Scott receives a 1-Up from Todd's place.
| |
| </gallery>
| |
| | |
| ''"Todd was weakened after having his powers removed"''
| |
| | |
| A completely baseless claim with no real evidence supporting it. Especially since the [http://imgur.com/gallery/2WbCGFL De-Veganizing Ray was made purely to remove vegan-based powers] which was also addressed prior. Only other argument against this could be Todd having his guard down, which doesn't prevent Scott from scaling.
| |
| | |
| [[File:Vegan Police 1-3.jpg|center|265px]]
| |
| | |
| ==='''Extra feats and scaling'''===
| |
| ===='''Envy tanks an enraged Todd's energy beam'''====
| |
| Right after envy kicks Todd, he unleashes an energy beam and [ knocks her back which Todd describes as "Hitting a girl"]. While not specified, this shouldn't be the same as Todd's telekinesis which demonstrates no visible energy beam from his head to the opponent.
| |
| | |
| [[File:Todd Fight 3-2.jpg|center|265px]]
| |
| | |
| ===='''Scott Survives a vegan shock from Todd'''====
| |
| After Scott gets out skilled in bass, [http://imgur.com/gallery/pC1mfNY Todd sends out a bolt of electricity from his guitar]. Afterwards, Scott gets up unscathed from the bolt.
| |
| | |
| [[File:Todd Fight 3-4.jpg|center|265px]]
| |
| | |
| | |
| ===='''Crash and the Boys block Todd's guitar attack'''==== | |
| Crash and the Boys use their willpower to [http://imgur.com/gallery/JnNS3Ko manifest a barrier around them in Scott]. While the argument could be made that Scott has never shown any way to scale to Crash, he appears unimpressed by their strength to hold off Todd, which only adds to these other feats.
| |
| | |
| <gallery type="slideshow" widths="400" position="center"> | |
| File:Todd Fight 3-6.jpg
| |
| File:Todd Fight 3-7.jpg
| |
| File:Todd Fight 3-8.jpg
| |
| </gallery>
| |
| | |
| ===='''Ramona tanks the original moon punch'''====
| |
| This is a "newer" (More like recently discovered) feat from Ramona. During Todd's punch to the moon, Ramona notes that there were [http://imgur.com/gallery/0RU4mjK 30 pages worth of explosions from Todd's shockwave]. Logically, Ramona had to have been hit, or at least affected by, the shockwave from Todd's punch. We even see the moon appear right above her, further summitting this idea.
| |
| | |
| [[File:Ramona Flashback 1-2.jpg|center|265px]]
| |
| | |
| | |
| =='''Scott's Statements and Progression'''==
| |
| Yes, there is still more. In volume five, Scott directly confirms that [http://imgur.com/gallery/vIFrT4s each exe gets harder and harder each battle].
| |
| | |
| <gallery type="slideshow" widths="400" position="center">
| |
| File:Drunk Time 1-1.jpg|Scott defeat one of the Twins' robots.
| |
| File:Drunk Time 1-2.jpg|Scott admits each exe gets progressively harder.
| |
| </gallery>
| |
| | |
| {{Quote|Not that fighting harder and harder battles for your love is getting old or anything...|[[Scott Pilgrim]]}} | |
| | |
| ==='''Exes getting tougher each Fight'''===
| |
| ''"This doesn't necessarily refer to them getting physically stronger."''
| |
| | |
| There's not many options for what this could mean, especially since Scott directly says "harder '''battles'''". Scott uses the word "harder" in reference to each exe fight getting more and more challenging as time goes on. So let's break down each of the possibilities and explain why AP is the likeliest option Scott refers to in this sentence, starting with skill.
| |
| | |
| ===='''Skill and intelligence of the Exes'''====
| |
| [[Matthew Patel]], for the longest time, was the most skilled evil exe to face Scott Pilgrim. He was shown to have been a [http://imgur.com/gallery/p5WaTUS martial artist in middle school] and could compete with Scott's skill, who was considered the [https://imgur.com/kUpVBM5 best fighter in the Province] and won the [https://radiomaru.tumblr.com/post/23468620840/qa-vii All-Ontario Fighting Tournament at age 19] (And in the movie, [https://youtu.be/pFmACwD7RoE?t=1m42s Matthew is shown being incredibly agile and skilled in H2H combat])
| |
| | |
| <gallery type="slideshow" widths="400" position="center">
| |
| File:Matthew Origin Flashback 1-1.jpg|Ramona describes the amount of unwanted attention she got.
| |
| File:Matthew Origin Flashback 1-2.jpg|Matthew showed up and helped her fight every football jock.
| |
| File:Matthew Origin Flashback 1-3.jpg|Ramona dumps Matthew, leaving him to become vengeful.
| |
| </gallery>
| |
| | |
| Despite this, Scott Pilgrim defeats Matthew with no difficulty, and he ends up having more issue with characters like Lucas Lee who just had raw power and lifting strength. So skill is definitely not what Scott was referring to.
| |
| | |
| [[File:Matthew Fight 1-4.jpg|center|265px]]
| |
| | |
| ===='''Powers of the evil Exes'''====
| |
| This is basically the same case as the first point. After Matthew Patel, only Todd Ingram has any noteworthy powers that directly hinder Scott's ability to fight them, and it's debatable if Todd's are even better than Matthew since [http://imgur.com/gallery/VxfUINL his powers are directly connected to Subspace].
| |
| | |
| [[File:Scott-pilgrim-card-matthew-patel.png|center|265px]]
| |
| | |
| "''Even if Matthew's powers are greater, Scott had far more trouble with Todd, thus he means their powers.''"
| |
| | |
| Even with this mindset (Which is a bad one since Matthew's powers still outranged Scott, Matthew was just physically weaker than Scott), the Twins' robots had absolutely [http://imgur.com/gallery/ZzfLTUc no unique abilities like Todd or Matthew], [http://imgur.com/gallery/RpMKPvM and simply relied on physical power] (More evidence supporting physically tougher opponents since he fought these robots right before he said the line)
| |
| | |
| <gallery type="slideshow" widths="400" position="center">
| |
| File:Scott vs Robot-01 1-1.jpg
| |
| File:Scott vs Robot-01 1-2.jpg
| |
| File:Scott vs Robot-01 1-3.jpg
| |
| File:Scott vs Robot-01 1-4.jpg
| |
| File:Scott vs Robot-01 1-6.jpg
| |
| File:Scott vs Robot-01 1-7.jpg
| |
| File:Scott vs Robot-02 1-1.jpg
| |
| File:Scott vs Robot-02 1-2.jpg
| |
| File:Scott vs Robot-02 1-3.jpg
| |
| </gallery>
| |
| | |
| Scott even ended up breaking his guitar when hitting Robot-02, which is something that never happened with Todd. [http://imgur.com/gallery/TX15RwT And this wasn't even the strongest robot Scott faced], further backing them getting physically tougher.
| |
| | |
| <gallery type="slideshow" widths="400" position="center">
| |
| File:Robot-03_Fight 1-1.jpg
| |
| File:Robot-03_Fight 1-2.jpg
| |
| File:Robot-03_Fight 1-3.jpg
| |
| File:Robot-03_Fight 1-4.jpg
| |
| File:Robot-03_Fight 1-5.jpg
| |
| File:Robot-03_Fight 1-6.jpg
| |
| </gallery>
| |
| | |
| ===='''Mental influence of the Exes'''====
| |
| This is a weirder point brought up against Scott's statement, and while I partially agree since with each exe came more hurtles in Scott and Ramona's relationship, this had nothing to do with the exes' battles. For example, during the Twins fight Scott was [http://imgur.com/gallery/9Us9CB9 losing before they even started messing with his head]. And they weren't even winning with their amplified tag attacks.
| |
| | |
| <gallery type="slideshow" widths="400" position="center">
| |
| File:Twins Battle 1-1.jpg|We immediately see Scott losing to the Twins.
| |
| File:Twins Battle 1-2.jpg|Kim mentions Scott having a hangover.
| |
| File:Twins Battle 1-3.jpg
| |
| File:Twins Battle 1-4.jpg|The Twins began to combo Scott.
| |
| </gallery>
| |
| | |
| ''"Scott had a hangover. Of course he'd be losing to them."''
| |
| | |
| We see him fight completely normal right after this, so I doubt the hangover was actively damaging Scott's ability to fight or his physical stats. It's more likely that his senses were more sensitive to sound and touch, which is a common diagnosis for hangovers.
| |
| | |
| This also ignores the previous robot fights, where Scott is in his prime for each one. Heck, Scott needed an [http://imgur.com/gallery/bDBS6vT entirely new weapon and amplification] [http://imgur.com/gallery/15Dcjb8 just to compete with] [[Roxie Richter]], who was previously [http://imgur.com/gallery/bDBS6vT slicing Scott's limbs off with ease].
| |
| | |
| <gallery type="slideshow" widths="400" position="center">
| |
| File:Roxie_Fight_1-1.jpg|Both Scott and Roxie prepare for their battle.
| |
| File:Roxie_Fight_1-2.jpg|Scott begins to sprint at Roxie and leap in the air.
| |
| File:Roxie_Fight_1-3.jpg|Roxie does the same.
| |
| File:Roxie_Fight_1-4.jpg|Their blades clash and both land on their feet.
| |
| File:Roxie_Fight_1-5.jpg|Scott barely gets his face grazed by Roxie.
| |
| File:Roxie_Fight_1-6.jpg|Roxie gets completely cut in half.
| |
| File:Roxie_Fight_1-7.jpg|Then she explodes into a dozens or so small animals.
| |
| </gallery>
| |
| | |
| ==='''Scott Pilgrim's videogame-based laws'''===
| |
| Now for the last piece to this argument, we have Scott Pilgrim's laws. For newcomers, Scott's life is influenced by video game mechanics like [http://imgur.com/gallery/3gv2nDu power-ups], [http://imgur.com/gallery/4voDQhv save points], achievements, and so on.
| |
| | |
| | |
| | |
| ''"Those are just references, they shouldn't factor in as supporting points."''
| |
| | |
| They're more than just references. They directly change how the world works such as your [http://imgur.com/gallery/vWzKMdI level increasing your battle performance and stats against tougher foes], or [http://imgur.com/gallery/vWzKMdI extra lives bringing you back from the dead].
| |
| | |
| | |
| This is all important because bosses throughout videogames get progressively stronger
| |
| | |
| =='''Extra arguments and refutes'''==
| |
| ==='''Gideon's viewpoint on the other exes'''===
| |
| During Todd's mental breakdown incident in Honest Eds, we see Gideon in the final scene [http://imgur.com/gallery/FBRkDTy tell Todd to use his vegan powers before he leaves to face Scott].
| |
| | |
| [[File:Todd Fight 2-6.jpg|center|265px]]
| |
| | |
| {{Quote|Just use your vegan powers or whatever. He'll never know what hit him, right?|[[Gideon Graves]]}}
| |
| | |
| Here Gideon is even questioning the vegan powers' efficiency and credibility, which only plays into the ending of volume 3 where [http://imgur.com/gallery/ihRSB9d Gideon is completely unsurprised by Todd's defeat]. Mind you, this is the same Gideon who [http://imgur.com/gallery/nqxyG8N believed Scott to be competent enough to beat the entire League of Evil Exes].
| |
| | |
| <gallery type="slideshow" widths="400" position="center">
| |
| File:Lee's Palace Band 1-1.jpg|Sex Bob-Omb plays for everyone after Todd's defeat.
| |
| File:Lee's Palace Band 1-2.jpg|Gideon reveals to have been watching the whole time.
| |
| File:Lee's Palace Band 1-3.jpg|He leaves with no word or visible shock of Scott's victory.
| |
| File:Gideon Battle 1-5.jpg|Gideon reveals his plan involving Scott and Ramona's battle with him.
| |
| </gallery>
| |
| | |
| And at one point, Roxie implies Gideon has [http://imgur.com/gallery/ZGM5fQY little to no faith in the league's ability to beat Scott to the point of sending skilled swordsmen like Mr.Chau]. While Roxie did end up changing her assumption, that doesn't negate the fact that she thinks Gideon has little faith in her ability, which is only further backed up by what Gideon says to Todd above.
| |
| | |
| <gallery type="slideshow" widths="400" position="center">
| |
| File:Me.Chau vs Roxie 1-1.jpg|Roxie questions why Mr.Chau is at Ramona's house.
| |
| File:Me.Chau vs Roxie 1-2.jpg|Roxie then begins to fight him, assuming Gideon sent him.
| |
| </gallery> | |
| | |
| {{Quote|What the hell is this?
| |
| | |
| ''Did Gideon send you?''
| |
| | |
| ''I don't need help!''
| |
| | |
| ''Why doesn't anyone ever believe in me?!''|[[Roxie Richter]]}}
| |
| | |
| ==='''Scott Pilgrim vs Todd Ingram: the Game Edition'''===
| |
| Yes, I am aware the game is a completely separate continuity where the events differ. That doesn't, however, change the fact that the game was made and interpreted off the movie, which Bryan (As shown prior) helped direct the events of the movie (For those who haven't played the game, [https://youtu.be/ViqmbmqihsE?t=0m23s here is the boss battle]). This only further contradicts Bryan's original statement, and shows Scott is physically comparable to Todd.
| |
| | |
| Also, in the movie, Scott [https://youtu.be/dLpCZ8g5uK8?t=2m02s one-shots Todd without any of the issues most people present in the comics] (Remember, Todd gets his powers after the moon punch) and [https://youtu.be/dLpCZ8g5uK8 directly tanks a shockwave from Todd during the bass battle]. This is even more blatant scaling for Scott, which Bryan directed and approved of.
| |
| ==Conclusion==
| |
| The conclusion should be obvious based on this blog, which is that Todd scaling is completely valid. Bryan's statements contradict a lot of previously established lore and feats which are consistent portrayed differently than what Bryan had said, along with being outright slanderous to his characters who he underestimates in the original Tumblr question. As for a TL; DR of the rest of the blog.
| |
| *Todd being continental through exclusively vegan powers is narratively untrue, along with a grasp for straws.
| |
| *His vegan powers not scaling to his standard AP is baseless and goes against our standards for how we handle situations like that.
| |
| *Scott and co not scaling due to the outlier dismissal misunderstands what an outlier is and ignores the supporting feats for scaling.
| |
| *Scott losing was simply due to being unable to get in close and finish the fight, which he directly says at the end of the fight.
| |
| *Todd holding back has never been established as a character trait of his, and contradicts how he acts later in the volume, thus making all of Scott's feats against Todd valid.
| |
| *Scott states that each battle gets harder and harder, which is backed by him needing to powers and statistic amplifications to compete with them and the game-based laws in his universe.
| |
| *The other Scott Pilgrim media supports the two scaling rather than what Bryan says, and the later character interactions like Gideon Graves further supports this notion.
| |
