User:GiverOfThePeace/DBGT Wants some fun in this universe business

Dragon Ball Blogs
Dragon Ball Misconceptions	Moon Level Roshi - Universal Dragon Ball Super - Universal to Low Multiversal Dragon Ball GT - Multiversal Dragon Ball Heroes/Xenoverse

Introduction

So I've made a blog regarding Moon level Roshi and universe level Dragon Ball Super, now time for a blog regarding Universe level or Low Multiverse level Dragon Ball GT.

As a disclaimer: Do not take blogs from this wiki and try to use them on other wikis for upgrades or downgrades, the standards and practices we accept on this wiki is not the same as other wikis so taking what we say and applying it to another wiki isn't exactly the best practice. This blog is purely for this wiki and follows its standards.

Cosmology of Toei DB

The main argument from Low Multiversal comes from the Toei cosmology, I'm not going to be vague here since the main argument comes from vs wiki from what I see, so let's quote and go over it:

"Note: The Macrocosm is accepted as 2-C because Popo states the all of the past present and future are created in this room. This is backed up by the fact that the other realms hadn’t been introduced yet. Also, the Living Universe and Afterlife are stated to be separated by space and time. Also, Shin calls the Living Universe its own temporal world. This means that the Kaioshin realm is it owns space time continuum as well since the Afterlife and Living Universe are their own space time continums. Heaven is also stated to be as big as a universe multiple times. Hell is stated to be even bigger than Heaven, so that would mean it’s as a big as a universe too."

Alright let's go over this one by one.

"Popo states the all of the past present and future are created in this room."

For reference this is just the Pendulum Room from a filler episode of original Dragon Ball during Goku's training on Kami's Lookout titled "The Time Room".

This room was used for Goku to go back in time and learn from Master Roshi's former teacher, Master Mutaito.

This same room is later used in Dragon Ball Z to train Krillin, Tien Shinhan, Chiaotzu, and Yamcha for the saiyans by sending them in the past to deal with two Saiyans.

Now why bring both of these scenarios up? It's to clarify that there's obvious context behind what Popo's saying, the room itself doesn't literally create the past, present, and future, it can just take you to an interactive vision of the past rather than traditional time travel. We know this because Goku going back in time to meet Roshi did not alter the present in any way, shape, or form, and you cannot die in the Pendulum Room as the way it works is your mind goes on a journey to the past essentially, hence why Krillin and co. didn't actually die and where standing there the entire time.

So no, that room does not literally create the past, present, and future, all it does is has your mind journey to interactive bits of time that aren't the actual literal time periods, essentially "creating the past, present and future" in your head.

Also, the Living Universe and Afterlife are stated to be separated by space and time

But let's just go over how the Afterlife being a separate space-time doesn't work, firstly Goku has a time limit to get to King Kai's planet and train there and come back to Earth before the Saiyans arrive there, and then when the Saiyans arrive earlier then King Kai expected, he has a time limit to get back to Earth and save his friends before the saiyans kill them. This is all by the way happening in real time in the living world. Now one could argue that maybe both space-tims just run at the same time frames, other fictional verses do that, however the issue is here that the narrator's statement implies Goku is in a completely different time then Gohan, when that's clearly not true since they both run under the same timeframe. Thus the metaphorical nature of it.

The next issue is, Goku's teleportation. The instant transmission's entire gimmick is range, if something is too far away Goku cannot teleport to it. Keep this in mind, because an entire part of the Cell Saga has Goku looking for new Dragon Balls since Piccolo fused with Kami, and during this Goku attempts to find New Namek but it's just too far away for him, but he can IT to King Kai just fine, mind you that the excuse of King Kai telepathy or whatever can't even be used here because King Kai was asleep during Goku doing this so he didn't even know he was visiting. Now tell me how Goku can't find something that's in another galaxy, but he can find something in another universal space-time just fine? Ki signature doesn't even work because Goku's reasoning for not being able to find them was because they were too far for one, and for two, Namekians PL are around King Kai's and King Kai was asleep during this so his PL would be lower.

On top of all of this, the statement itself is very clearly being metaphorical, but let's not even begin to talk about how contradictory the rules of the afterlife are. Just for a basic example, When Vegeta is about to fight Kid Buu to buy Goku some time to get his Super Saiyan 3 energy back, Goku warns him that if he dies while already dead, he will not exist anymore, and Vegeta is almost "killed again" by Kid Buu when Mr. Satan comes to his rescue. However, when Piccolo defeats Chiaotzu in King Kai's planet during the episode "Piccolo vs. Everyone", it is stated that he can not die since he is already dead;and in Dragon Ball GT, Goku uses some attacks on Frieza and Cell which would have killed them (including freezing them with an ice machine and accidentally shattering them) but they "survive" because they were already dead and could not die again.

Also, Shin calls the Living Universe its own temporal world. This means that the Kaioshin realm is it owns space time continuum as well since the Afterlife and Living Universe are their own space time continums.

I'm kind of surprised that I have to say this, but the word "temporal" does not innately mean time or time dimension. The first definition of temporal is and I quote, "relating to worldly as opposed to spiritual affairs; secular.", which that definition makes far more sense in the context of the scan since Shin is talking about how Goku can never return back to the world of the living for his time is up. If you read the way Shin is saying it too, he's not even calling the Living Universe it's own temporal world, he's saying that Goku can never return to the "temporal world" again, aka the world of the living. This is a very important thing that any of you that use the world temporal should take notes on.

Heaven is also stated to be as big as a universe multiple times. Hell is stated to be even bigger than Heaven, so that would mean it’s as a big as a universe too.

Heaven is stated to be as big as the universe in guides, but then it's official cosmology map contradicts that, with heaven's size not even being comparable to the mortal universe and hell just being a disc above the mortal universe. Even then, all this would do is add it to the already level 1 Multiverse the Dragon Ball cosmology has. As I said during the first sentence too, majority of these statements come from guides, which are a tetriary canon, if the official cosmology map and main source material contradict it, then the statement no matter how many times it's said, is not usable (the scan only really notes 3 times too, two cropped screenshots from guides and one being a question Videl asks, the fourth picture is just Goku calling heaven big).

So with the actual cosmology debunked and out of the way, the main premise of Low 2-B is gone. Now time for tier 3.

Omega Destroys the universe

The feat comes from Dragon Ball GT where Omega Shenron's minus energy power ball he notes he will use to destroy the universe.

So you already know what my refute is going to be to this, but I know there is a blog that tries to refute it, and I'll deal with that argument first.

"1: The Minus Energy Power Ball is a chain reaction and only works by destroying the universe over a vast period of time
Rebuttal: While it's true that the area of effect of the Minus Ball is not Universal, that doesn't matter as per our standards on attack potency. What actually matters is the condensed attack potency displayed by it:

Attack Potency

A character with a certain degree of attack potency does not necessarily need to cause destructive feats on that level [. . .] We are aware that this technically violates the principle of conservation of energy, as it should logically disperse upon impact, but fiction generally tends to ignore this fact, so we overlook it as well [. . .] The attack potency depends upon the energy output of the attack, not the area of effect of the attack. I have provided the quotes that state the Minus Energy Power Ball is the combined negative energy of the Evil Dragons, which can destroy the universe, except heavily condensed and concentrated on a focal point, as you may have already seen.

Likewise, the highlighted bit I pointed on Elder Kaioshin's explanation of the Minus establishes that the Minus Energy Ball concentrated on Earth is the source of all the overflown energy that destroys the rest of the universe; the Minus Energy Ball merely radiates small pockets of negative energy onto other worlds until its energy source is fully depleted, but by that point the entire universe is already gone."
Yeah so this doesn't work, this is taking the point of AP way too hyper-literally. Yes, AP is essentially a concession in fiction we have to accept that authors won't consider AoE, here's the issue though, Elder Kai in the persons own scan, directly notes it slowly corrodes the planet and has it die and it's corrosion will spread to the other planets. That's not only not an excuse that you can use Attack Potency for but it's also just using an irrelevant term here for something not even for what the term concedes on.

An analogy I can use for this point to be better understood is the following:

The energy required to destroy the universe is 1,000,000,000 units of energy. The Minus Ball has a condensed power source of 1,000,000,000 units. The energy required to destroy a star is 0.1 units. The Minus Ball radiates 0.1 units of negative energy onto other worlds, lowering its original condensed power. By the time all 1,000,000,000 units have been spent, the entire universe will have already been destroyed. Another example:

A character that is 3-C can fire an energy blast; said energy blast will destroy a galaxy, but after it destroys the galaxy it will vanish/dissipate, because all of its energy will have been spent in order to perform such feat. A character that can destroy 52 galaxies can fire an energy blast. Said energy blast will destroy a galaxy, and after it destroys one galaxy it will keep going, destroying another and so on, until it has destroyed 52 galaxies; when that happens, it will dissipate because all of its energy will have been spent to perform this feat. Likewise, the Minus Energy Ball, by virtue of being a condensed energy attack of the 3-A order, fits into the above. This argument ends up not working at all."
These analogies in specific definitely does not work. The minus energy is not 1,000,000,000 units, all Omega Shenron says is that it's condensed energy that once it's released, will corrode the Earth and overtime the rest of the universe. He's not saying at all the power to destroy a universe is within that blast, he's saying the power of corrosion and pure evil and negative energy and all that jazz is in that blast.

The 52 galaxies analogy doesn't work either because that's not how the power of 52 galaxies would work, the length of how long an energy blast can last is not purely of power but moreso of Stamina. So yeah the scan itself is once again Elder Kai himself funninly enough debunking it being a universal feat.

The Shadow Dragon Can destroy the universe

This comes from a short introduction of Episode 48 of Dragon Ball GT, a translation is here for further clairifcation. The important bits are these: "The Evil Dragon seems to have been created because Goku and his friends overused the Dragon Balls, and if left unattended, it is said that not only the Earth but also the entire universe will be destroyed.

What is the evil dragon's power to destroy the universe? And will Goku be able to overcome that unknown power? Now, a fierce battle for the fate of the entire universe has begun."
Now not only in the Dragon Ball franchise is "character has the power to destroy the universe" never a statement that should be taken hyper-literally, because has always used "X has the power to destroy the universe" as hyperbole for their big villain. The Shadow Dragon is no different, especially since Omega's minus energy ball has full context from how it "destroys the universe".

Conclusion

These are all the Universal to Low Multiversal arguments I see get thrown around and as usual for the Dragon Ball series, they lack context. If you have any issues with this blog and want to list your long refutes, I'd suggest joining the discord to discuss it, as conversations over blogs aren't at all a great place to discuss topics like these that obviously will be talked about in circles.

I'll also not being replying to any off-site "refutes" to my blog unless I really feel like it, this blog is for this site, if a person has an issue with it I've provided two ways to discuss it with me.