User:GiverOfThePeace/There was never a moon

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Introduction

Alright just for future cases when a Roshi profile is eventually made moon level is completely disallowed by us Dragon Ball Experts and will need to be sufficiently proven in a CRT with enough support. The following will explain why we completely disagree with Moon level Roshi and why we consider it inconsistent. But first let’s discuss two major things I’ve noticed after surveying various threads regarding Roshi, the concept of an “outlier” and the grave misunderstanding I’ve been seeing.

Disclaimer: Do not take blogs from this wiki and try to use them on other wikis for upgrades or downgrades, the standards and practices we accept on this wiki is not the same as other wikis so taking what we say and applying it to another wiki isn't exactly the best practice. This blog is purely for this wiki and follows its standards.

Outlier

As shown in our Outlier page it is considered a feat inconsistent with the other feats shown, this concept doesn’t originate from vs debating but from statistics, it’s basically a point that’s radically far off from other points, here’s a picture as an example. I explain this to basically note that in statistics, which is what we use for the powerscaling idea of an outlier, we do not consider that scatter point does not exist, we consider that it’s best to discard the scatter point as it doesn’t support the line of best fit. The same thing with outliers for feats, we don’t assume that the feat suddenly doesn’t exist anymore or that the author believes the feat doesn’t exist anymore. I mention this to say that any guidebook reaffirming that Roshi destroyed the moon doesn’t help support or debunk the argument of Moon level Roshi, all it does is re-affirm that yes, that event indeed existed, which is not what we’re arguing. We are fully aware Roshi destroyed the moon, it’s an event that objectively happened. So like the scatter point, we don’t consider the Roshi feat doesn’t exist, we consider it best to discard the feat as it’s not consistent.

So when you see me say "this feat isn't legit", I'm saying not scalable due to it being an outlier, not regarding it not existing.

Counterarguments for Moon level Roshi

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So the obvious argument for why he is the very feat he did:
https://imgur.com/a/FazVoYg

But as stated by us, it’s an outlier. Reasons?

For one, you have how his other Max Power Kamehameha nuked part of a mountain and only got calculated around city:
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:FanofRPGs/Master_Roshi_destroys_Mount_Frypan

The feat itself can never be argued a moon level attack that overwhelmed the mountain as the total destruction it did still left a good majority of the building intact.

Counter argument made for this was Roshi wasn’t going all out cause he laughed at the end of it or didn’t have a serious face on him after doing the deed, but if you see the specific statement in the scene itself:
https://pm1.narvii.com/7525/ca801ba45b1a6c43c75164ac3391b19d190aea05r1-1080-1593v2_hq.jpg
He specifically implies that he went a little too overboard. All this scene implies is he didn’t control himself, mind you this was still back when Dragon Ball was a gag manga, so it wouldn’t make any logical sense to portray this as a serious scene.

This also can’t be argued ki control since Roshi literally admitted he went overboard and such, mind you there’s still pieces of the castle left in tact after the feat, so if this was the true moon busting kamehameha he would’ve atomized the castle pieces, unless we’re going to say the moon is smaller than that.

Another point mind you is that Roshi wasn't aware of his own strength here very clearly, Roshi hasn't fought for a long ass time before this moment in the manga because he's been a hermit for so long.

We also know that this isn't a casual feat because one, Roshi went to MAX power. Now contrary to popular belief, MAX Power Roshi isn't a form that Roshi controls, it's literally in the name. It's Roshi at his maximum power, just like 100% Final Form Frieza isn't a form. Now we also know with the kamehameha that Roshi is using is directly explained by Yamcha to be using ALL of his dormant power and condensing it into a single blast:
https://imgur.com/a/gH4gyZq

Now let's get the counterargument to this counterargument out of the way, which is that Yamcha is just lying/doesn't know what he's talking about here.

I'm not joking either, this is unironically an argument people used. So the very point of this scene is for Yamcha to explain to the audience what the kamehameha is cause this is the first time in history we've seen it. This is an exposition scene. These are two objective points that are the very basics of narrative, there's no denial here. Thus, tell me why the fuck would Toriyama have Yamcha LIE in the exposition scene trying to explain what the kamehameha is? That goes against the entire narrative structure of this scene. He's never once called out for being wrong, no one says he's lying, he has no reason to lie here, etcetera.

This also goes against the VERY NAME of the attack, which is the MAX POWER Kamehameha:
https://dragonball.fandom.com/wiki/MAX_Power_Kamehameha

Objectively, Roshi used his maximum power here, also ki control wasn't a concept yet as ki concealing wasn't taught by characters until Goku was trained by Popo in Dragon Ball. Hell, ki sensing wasn't even a thing until Goku drank the sacred water.

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The second counter argument is King Piccolo himself, since his strongest attack was calculated at 7-B:
http://web.archive.org/web/20160504180642/http://www.narutoforums.com/xfa-blog-entry/19133

Before we get into the other parts, this along with the rest have been argued to just be “ki control” now for those who don’t know, I’ll give a brief description of what ki control is. It is controlling the flow of ki within one’s body, allowing one to channel larger or smaller amounts of their ki reserves. In essence, they can adjust their strength to match the situation, and generate attacks which contain larger concentrations of ki than they are normally capable of.

The full explanation of it is here:
https://imgur.com/a/3wfId5C

So basically, when a dragon ball character is exerting ki control it’s not for a full powered charge, it’s for holding back how much ki they’re using. If they are using their full power, they're going to curve the beam or send it upwards, away from the planet in order to stop the planet from being destroyed. Such as when Vegeta curved his final flash when Trunks thought he was going to destroy the planet.
https://imgur.com/a/XvBvtbH

King Piccolo using his strongest attack is most definitely not him holding back how much ki he wasted and he never once curves it when he does use said attack. Goku even directly reaffirms this during their fight.
https://imgur.com/a/4unGjls

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The third counter argument comes from the Red Ribbon Army Arc. Roshi notes that Goku surpasses him in power.
https://imgur.com/a/VXMSwIV

Now before we get into why this matters, let's quickly deal with a counterargument I see people use. That the statement of Goku surpassing him in power is in reference to his base form. This statement makes no sense as Roshi doesn't have "forms" as noted above, Max Power Roshi is exactly what it is, maximum power, not a seperate form of his, so it's obvious Roshi is taking that state into account when saying Goku has surpassed him.

Now the reason this matters, Goku during this fight would've died to a missle that destroyed a mountain if het let it hit him, along with this it hurt his feet when he kicked it. The missile can't be 5-C because the missile doesn't have ki control and it does not destroy more then just the mountain.

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The final counter argument comes from the Goku vs. Tien fight. Now, it's pretty much accepted that Tien scales above Roshi. Roshi admitted during their fight he would've lost to Tien if it went on, and Tien has an official higher power level then Roshi during this arc. Even then, he matched a Roshi that specifically trained during this arc to catch up with his students, so he's stronger then himself from the 21st budokai tournament.

Tien's attack destroyed the entire arena, now what matters about this is that Roshi openly comments on the destructive power of the arena blast and notes how the kamehameha doesn't even compare to it.

Kami Scaling

Another thing I see used for Roshi's moon level feat being legit is that Kami himself re-created the moon during the 23rd Budokai Arc.

To start off, we can't even scale Roshi to Kami. King Piccolo and Goku have listed power levels of 260, Kami casually flicked away Goku after their first meeting and this is after his King Piccolo fight where he would've gotten a zenkai boost. Just note Roshi believed there's no way for him to defeat King Piccolo. So Kami far more powerful then Roshi and shouldn't at all be used as a reason for Roshi's feat not being an outlier. Though secondly, Kami's standard of "creation" is far different from what we consider an attack potency creation feat. Popo notes that he molds the creations and Kami "breathes life into them". Also the feat is done off screen, so there's no way to gauge how he did this, thus this feat cannot be used.

Early DBZ Piccolo Scaling

Another thing I see used for Roshi's moon level feat being legit is that Piccolo in early DBZ can destroy the moon.

This is the same issue as Kami but worse, Piccolo has a power level of 329, along with Roshi and Krillin admitting he'd slaughter them due to his power level (for further note, this is just his resting power level). So if that's a post-Tien fight Roshi, who trained past the 21st budokai tournament and he still thinks Piccolo will slaughter him, then there's no reason to use early DBZ Piccolo to justify a feat of a character that isn't even remotely comparable to him.

Along with this, Piccolo's own moon feat took effort to do, with his veins popping out, him breathing hard after performing the feat. If you want to get really fucky, in DBZ Kakarot, which is considered canon, they straight up retconned Piccolo's moon feat with him "creates an illusion in which the moon only appears to be destroyed.

So Roshi most definetely cannot be used to backscale from this.

Sheron Scaling

Ok so this is moreso for Kami then anyone else but the argument is since Shenron notes a wishes power cannot surpass Kami's he therefore has to be moon level for shenron to restore the moon, which is an extra moon feat that can be added on to support Roshi's moon feat.

Same problem as the prior two, Roshi is nowhere near comparable to Shenron, Kami, or Piccolo so these can't be used to argue his feat legit. Along with this, Shenron's powers are reality warping, Shenron's statement isn't in relation to physical power, it's in relation to Kami's magical powers. Or else Guru, a obese, dying namekian would not have such a powerful dragon like Porugna.

For those trying to remember what Shenron's moon feats are by the way, both are hypothetical and aren't confirmed. The first one is that Kami used shenron to recreate the moon, the second one is that Shenron re-created the moon during the Frieza-Android saga interlude by some unknown person.

Some Extra Takes

I think a very important thing people have to understand is narrative cohesion with this scene. When Roshi did this feat, Dragon Ball was still largely a gag manga where characters could do whatever. Roshi destroying the moon was a mere gag scene to deal with Goku becoming a giant monkey. The minute Dragon Ball became a battle manga, the feats went to being more gradual, they very clearly were not treated as moon level until the beginning of early DBZ and I think that's an important factor people have to accept.

I have seen people argue against the use of "outliers" in fictional stating as of recent and I that's just a ludicrous thing to do, outliers are real concepts that should be applied to everything, including discussions like this. The author is not a perfect writer and will sometimes stray their character away from the narrative. If I made a character called Bob, have him destroy the universe in chapter 1, and then proceed to make him get stronger, and have him get consistently harmed by far lower things, the mindset people with the "don't use outliers" would follow is universal is okay to use, even though Bob is narratively not universal. I think the main issue isn't that outliers shouldn't be used, I think the main issue is that on a lot of other sites, outlier is used way too sparingly vs. being the last case scenario when fully gauging feats.

Conclusion

Roshi isn't moon level, well during early Dragon Ball anyways. I think arguing him moon level, especially if you follow using outliers, ignores that Roshi's moon feat is literally one of the most textbook defintions of an outlier. It's a one-off feat that's contradicted by the other feats that happen in between it. If you have any issues with this blog and want to list your long refutes, I'd suggest joining the discord to discuss it, as conversations over blogs aren't at all a great place to discuss topics this long.

I'll also not being replying to any off-site "refutes" to my blog unless I really feel like it, this blog is for this site, if a person has an issue with it I've provided two ways to discuss it with me.