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User:MrWarnerTheGreat/Sandbox: Difference between revisions

From The Codex
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<tabber>
==Introduction==
|-|Pikmin=
As of now, a majority of people have this idea that Todd is the most powerful Scott Pilgrim character and that nobody scales to him. This blog is here to debunk this idea since it's getting increasingly annoying facing the same arguments over and over again. If anyone has any disagreements with this blog, '''please''' share your thoughts and refutes in the comments.
{{#tag:tabber|
{{!}}-{{!}}Olimar=
{{#tag:tabber|
{{!}}-{{!}}Pikmin Artwork=
[[File:Olimar walks Pikmin 1.png|thumb|185px]]
{{!}}-{{!}}Clay Model=
[[File:Olimar clay model Pikmin 2.png|thumb|385px]]
{{!}}-{{!}}Hey! Pikmin Artwork=
[[File:Captain-Olimar-PNG-Picture.png|thumb|185px]]
}}
{{!}}-{{!}}S.S Dolphin=
{{#tag:tabber|
{{!}}-{{!}}S.S Dolphin I=
[[File:16839.png|thumb|385px]]
{{!}}-{{!}}S.S Dolphin II=
[[File:S.S_Dolphin_II.png|thumb|385px]]
}}
}}
|-|Smash=
{{#tag:tabber|
{{!}}-{{!}}Mural=
[[File:Olimar Mural Art.webp|thumb|185px]]
{{!}}-{{!}}Super Smash Bros. Brawl=
[[File:Olimar_SSBB.png|thumb|385px]]
{{!}}-{{!}}Super Smash Bros. for 3DS/Wii U=
[[File:Olimar_Smash_Bros.png|thumb|385px]]
{{!}}-{{!}}Super Smash Bros. Ultimate=
[[File:Olimar_SSBU.png|thumb|345px]]
}}
</tabber>


{{Quote|My name is Captain Olimar. While traveling through space, my ship was struck by a meteor... I must have blacked out, and I awoke on the surface of a weird planet. With so many parts lost, the skeletal hull of my beloved Dolphin is a painful sight. The engine is gone... I'm stranded.


''To make matters worse, my atmospheric sensors indicate this planet's environment contains high levels of poisonous oxygen. My life-support systems can function for only 30 days. If I can't repair the Dolphin by then... No! Better not to think about it. I must find the missing ship parts!''|Olimar's Monologue}}
==Author and Official Statements==
===Clash at Demonhead Extras===
To start, we have [http://imgur.com/gallery/TCms2HM Todd's character draft description]. This comes from the extra content pages in volume 2 about Clash At Demonhead where it states ''"He turned out to be bigger, stronger, and more powerful than Scott, but equally dumb, or even dumber."''


==Background==
[[File:The Clash At Demonhead Charater Drafts.jpg|400px]]
'''Captain Olimar''' (キャプテン・オリマー, Kyaputen Orimā), also referred to as simply '''Olimar''' (オリマー), is the main protagonist of ''Pikmin 1'', ''Pikmin 2'', ''Hey! Pikmin'', and the side stories to ''Pikmin 3 Deluxe''. He also has a minor role throughout the main story of ''Pikmin 3'' where he becomes a primary character in the final location, the Formidable Oak.


He had crash landed on PNF-404 while flying through space and lost a number of pieces to his ship. Fortunately for him, he discovered the [[Pikmin|Pikmin species]] and safely gathered all the lost parts of his ship and successfully flew back to Hocotate. However, he is tasked in the sequel game by the [[The President (Pikmin)|President]] of Hocotate Freight to return to the planet with a new employee, [[Louie]], and find enough treasure to pay off the company's debt.
Now there are several issues with this that I feel a lot of people blatantly ignore or just don't understand. For starters, the actual context of this statement refers to Todd's [http://imgur.com/gallery/HmS0ZUI telekinetic] [http://imgur.com/gallery/KvZHbaf ranged] [http://imgur.com/gallery/Rq2xxO0 abilities]. Todd doesn't actually ever fight Scott physically and just uses his ranged abilities. In both instances shown here, Scott misses and Todd responds by throwing him with his telekinesis. At best, this proves Todd has superior lifting strength, which means nothing in comparison to both's raw attack potency.


In Pikmin 3, he is tasked to, once again, return to PNF-404 with Louie to pay off the debt of Hocotate Freight again. This time however, Olimar is stranded and held hostage by the [[Plasm Wraith|mysterious lifeform]] and is rescued by a group of Kopai astronauts in search of food for their dying planet. Despite losing his ship and only returning home thanks to the Koppaites, the president instructs him and Louie to return once more to recover the damaged ship.
<gallery type="slideshow" widths="400" position="center">
[[File:Todd Fight 1-1.jpg|285px]]
[[File:Todd Fight 1-2.jpg|285px]]
[[File:Todd Fight 1-3.jpg|285px]]
[[File:Todd Fight 1-4.jpg|285px]]
[[File:Todd Fight 1-5.jpg|285px]]
[[File:Todd Fight 1-6.jpg|285px]]
</gallery>


==Powers and Stats==
Secondly, as shown in the first scan, Todd goes out of his way to dodge Scott's punches. While this could be because he finds getting hit annoying, [http://imgur.com/gallery/q4jB6cM several other instances in the volume] [http://imgur.com/gallery/2TdifLw show otherwise]. Him dodging these attacks are because he is more than aware of how strong Scott and co is, which directly affects how he chooses to fight Scott (Something Scott even says himself). Even if Scott was weaker than Todd, it wouldn't be to a massive degree that Scott could no longer scale to Todd.
[[DebatesJungle Tiering System|Tier]]: At least '''10-C''' physically, '''Higher''' with the [https://pikmin.fandom.com/wiki/Brute_Knuckles Rocket Fist], '''4-C''' with the [https://pikmin.fandom.com/wiki/Nova_Blaster#Notes Nova blaster]


'''Name:''' Olimar
Another thing to point out about the second statement is that O’Malley compares them to Ryu and Ken, Ryu and Ken are rivals around the same level, so all this would imply is that Todd is somewhat more powerful but not to an extent that would put him above Scott’s league.
===Bryan's Tumblr Statement===
Next off, we have [https://radiomaru.tumblr.com/post/46266669758/how-come-todd-ingram-didnt-kill-scott-in-the Bryan's statement from tumbler which is fairly similar to the first one] ''"Matthew went all-out because he sucks. Todd would never go all-out. If he went all-out, he wouldn’t be Todd. Todd is a smarmy jerk who wants to toy with Scott and feel cool and superior without trying. That’s the point of Todd."''


'''Origin:''' [[Pikmin (Verse)|Pikmin]]
[[File:Bryan's Tumblr Answer Scott Pilgrim.jpg|center|285px]]


'''Gender:''' Male
First off, let's take a look at the original question here. ''"How come Todd Ingram didn't kill Scott in the beginning of volume 3? If he can punch a hole in the moon, couldn't he have finished off Scott the moment they met? At least Matthew Patel made the effort to go all-out in their first meeting."'' So based on the way the commenter views Todd, it's clear he doesn't see Scott as any more than an average joe who happens to know martial arts, which Bryan seems to follow along with. So by accepting what Bryan says about Todd, you alternatively accept Scott as an average human martial artist.


'''Age:''' Likely in his late 30s to early 40s
''"That's a stupid argument! We don't know what either Todd or the reader are thinking!"''


'''Classification:''' Alien
To a degree, this is true. However, we are expecting a casual reader and author to understand vs debate rules such as tiers, area of effect, scaling, and outliers. Of course they're going to say the dude who makes massive explosions is stronger. Heck, our [https://debatesjungle.fandom.com/wiki/Creation_vs_Destruction#Disclaimer Creation vs Destruction page paints this notion very clearly].


'''[[Attack Potency]]:''' At least '''Below Average Human level''' (Can harm those who can harm him. [https://youtu.be/-iwaiXKNlt0?t=0m56s Has punched fully grown Bulbords to death]), '''Higher''' with Rocket Fist ([https://pikmin.fandom.com/wiki/Brute_Knuckles The Rocket Fist amplifies Olimar's attacks by roughly three times its original power]), '''Star level''' with the Nova Blaster (The Nova Blaster can [https://pikmin.fandom.com/wiki/Nova_Blaster#Notes create shockwaves that can reduce stars to bits])
Furthermore, It's also important to note that this answer directly contradicts Todd's character. He's never shown to act cocky to the point of [http://imgur.com/gallery/q4jB6cM holding back to Scott's level] [http://imgur.com/gallery/JnNS3Ko or to torture Scott for fun], nor has this been stated by him or anyone else.


'''[[Dimensionality]]:''' '''3-D'''
<gallery type="slideshow" widths="400" position="center">


'''[[Speed|Travel Speed]]:''' At least '''Subsonic''', likely '''Supersonic''' ([https://youtu.be/PGxJfTzJ2ys?t=0m26s Can maneuver and keep pace with the gunfire from] [[Man at Legs (Pikmin)|Man at Legs]]), '''higher''' with Rush Boots ([https://pikmin.fandom.com/wiki/Repugnant_Appendage The Rush Boots increase Olimar's travel speed]), '''High Hypersonic''' launching speeds (Can scale to Pikmin, [https://youtu.be/233Z0WhDrak?t=2m03s who can launch each other above the clouds in seconds]), '''Massively FTL+''' with S.S Dolphin (S.S Dolphin & Drake can travel [https://youtu.be/1-bi6y5qpZk?t=1m20s 279,000 light years in seconds] and beyond "super light speed")
</gallery>


'''[[Speed|Combat Speed]]:''' At least '''Supersonic''' (Should be comparable to lesser enemies. Scales to [[Louie]]), '''Extra-Temporal''' Attack Speed with Nova Blaster (The Nova Blaster creates shockwaves that [https://pikmin.fandom.com/wiki/Nova_Blaster#Discovery_Notes travel in the currents of space-time destroying anything in its path])
Funny enough, Who Bryan was really referring to in this question was Envy rather than Todd who happens to want to torment Scott for the past. It even says at the beginning of the volume that Todd [http://imgur.com/gallery/MogzfCc doesn't want to make Scott suffer and just wants to end the fight as soon as possible]


'''[[Speed|Reaction Speed]]:''' At least '''Supersonic''' (Can fight off Mushroom Pikmin who scale to the original Pikmin. Can dodge gunfire from Man at Legs)


'''[[Lifting Strength]]:''' At least '''Below Average''' (Can lift roughly 350 grams and effortlessly throw Rock Pikmin)


'''[[Striking Strength]]:''' At least '''Below Average Human Class''', '''higher''' with the Rocket Fist


'''[[Durability]]:''' At least '''Below Average Human level''' (Him and other captains have [https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:The_Smashor/Pikmin_Captains_fall_from_space survived falls from orbit]), '''higher''' with Metal Suit Z ([https://pikmin.fandom.com/wiki/Justice_Alloy The Metal Suit Z is a direct upgrade from Olimar's original suit and reduces all forms of damage])


'''[[Stamina]]:''' High (Can go days without food and rest and still be able to work)


'''[[Range]]:''' Below Average Melee Range physically (Can only punch a few centimeters far), at least Standard Melee Range with Pikmin (Can throw pikmin long distances), Hundreds of Meters with whistles ([https://dosits.org/science/movement/how-fast-does-sound-travel/ As Olimar's whistles are sound-based, they should naturally travel around 340 meters] [https://pikmin.fandom.com/wiki/Amplified_Amplifier and can be increased further with speaker amplifications]), Universal+ with S.S Dolphin (The Chronos Reactor can [https://pikmin.fandom.com/wiki/Chronos_Reactor warp the space-time continuum] and the Nova Blaster [https://pikmin.fandom.com/wiki/Nova_Blaster#Discovery_Notes travels through the currents of space-time]), Low Multiversal with optional equipment, [[Information Analysis]], and Purple Pikmin's [[Vibration Manipulation|Shockwave Generation]]
Todd is only continental with his Vegan Powers


'''[[Hax|Powers and Abilities]]:'''<tabber>|-|Innate Abilities=
Not only is this a wild assumption with no actual evidence, it narratively makes no sense. At no point is this ever mentioned or confirmed by Todd and he's even seen dodging attacks from Scott while in this "Vegan form" which defeats the entire premise of them being two different forms
[[Superhuman Physical Characteristics]], [[Small Size]] (Type 2. Olimar is only 1.9 centimeters), [[Acrobatics]], [[Human Achievements]] (Is an engineer, astronaut, and scientist), [[Stealth Mastery]] (Due to their small size, [https://youtu.be/5bA6-8_8cto?t=4m29s captains like Olimar can easily hide in small areas]), [[Sound Manipulation]], [[Empathic Manipulation]], [[Purification]], and Limited [[Mind Manipulation]] (With his [https://pikmin.fandom.com/wiki/Whistle whistle], Olimar can remove status effects within the environment and Pikmin such as fire, water, paralysis, electricity, poison, and Dweevil Acids  . The Pluckaphone [https://www.pikminwiki.com/Professional_Noisemaker inspires Pikmin to pluck themselves]. He can temporarily [https://youtu.be/233Z0WhDrak?t=7m09s stun enemies with the whistle] and can control Pikmin, and even other captains, with his whistle), [[Self-Sustenance]] (Type 1. His space suit allows him to breath in space and on toxic planets), Limited [[Flight]] ([https://youtu.be/RlZ0mq4-EUM?t=2m54s Has a jetpack that can fly for an extended period]), [[BFR]] and [[Portal Creation]] (Type 2. [https://youtu.be/2vlrqU0t9cA?t=8m03s Carries a ring that creates a portal that teleports anything Olimar needs moved]), [[Regeneration]] (Mid. [https://youtu.be/oFi1vPqMiCs?t=2m53s Can survive and regenerate after being flattened]), Passive [[Teleportation]] ([https://youtu.be/p2CGLrpEW3c?t=19m48s Will be brought back to his ship after being incapacitated regardless of where he is]), [[Immortality]] (Type 3 & 6 and possible 8. Can survive being squashed and regenerate from it. Although only shown in a non canon ending to Pikmin 1, Olimar should have a connection similar to the [[Pikmin]] with the Onion, as he has been put in the Onion before and can be resurrected if his corpse is carried to the Onion), [[Petrification]], [[Durability Negation]], and [[Power Nullification]] with [https://www.pikminwiki.com/Ultra-bitter_spray Ultra-bitter spray] (Can [https://youtu.be/Yw5gcAgKN1o?t=9m44s completely petrify large enemies into solid stone] making them weaker to damage. Pikmin hit by the spray will he deflowered and burrowed into the ground), [[Statistics Amplification]] and [[Rage Power]] (With the [https://www.pikminwiki.com/Ultra-spicy_spray Ultra-spicy spray]. When used, this spray [https://youtu.be/n3WVPXq0Tyo?t=6m07s increases the physical stats of Pikmin and makes them agitated]), [[Information Analysis]] ([https://youtu.be/5bA6-8_8cto?t=3m36s Captains can scan lifeforms when close enough] and have a map of their current location), [[Light Manipulation]] (With the [https://pikmin.fandom.com/wiki/Stellar_Orb Stellar Orb, which emits a small radius of light]), [[Summoning]] (Can summon Pikmin from the union and his ship for various tasks), [[Resistance]] to [[Disease Manipulation]] and [[Poison Manipulation]] (His suit should naturally protects him from toxins and diseases), [[Fragrance Manipulation]] (His helmet and space suit [https://youtu.be/1K8FSO-FPog?t=10m16s protect him from the planet's gases, preventing him from smelling]), [[Heat Manipulation|Extreme Heats]] and [[Cold Manipulation|Extreme Colds]] (Can survive in all of the underground dungeons and earth's biomes like the tundra and desert), [[Time Stop]] and [[Magnetism Manipulation]] (Is unaffected by the [http://imgur.com/gallery/iBpPyhW magnetic field which stops time in the underground dungeons]), [[Fire Manipulation]] (The Scorch Gaurd protects the wearer from [https://pikmin.fandom.com/wiki/Space_Suit_Upgrades#Scorch_Guard fire-based hazards]), [[Electricity Manipulation]] and [[Paralysis Inducement]] ([https://pikmin.fandom.com/wiki/Space_Suit_Upgrades#Anti-Electrifier Unaffected by electricity with the Anti-Electrifier]), [[Acid Manipulation]] (Is [https://youtu.be/PHrCreCHmuM?t=0m30s resistant to Dweevil Acids]), [[Fungus Manipulation]], [[Transmutation]], and [[Corruption]] (Is completely resistant to Puffstool spores, which [https://youtu.be/4_iAVyTcq3s?t=16m50s transform Pikmin into mushroom pikmin, corrupting them in the process]), [[Sound Manipulation]] and [[Empathic Manipulation]] (The Antenna Beetle's [https://youtu.be/uDvbvO230q0?t=8m15s whistle-like sound similar to the captain's whistle has no effect on Olimar]), [[Fear Manipulation]], [[Mind Manipulation]] and [[Madness Manipulation]] (Type 3; Resist the [https://www.pikminwiki.com/Waterwraith Waterwraith's abilities that make one fearful and insane upon sight])
|-|Optional Equipment=
[[Dimensional Travel]] and [[Cosmic Awareness]] ([https://youtu.be/FPziac5eeU8?t=8m01s The President's parallel-dimension controller can detect dimensional shifts] and receive messages meant for the [[The Player (Nintendo)|player]]), [[Healing]] ([https://www.pikminwiki.com/Heart Hearts are collectible fruits that heal Olimar]. They can be carried by Pikmin outside and during combat), [[Life Manipulation]] and [[Plant Manipulation]] ([https://pikmin.fandom.com/wiki/Bingo_Battle#Items Can create] [https://youtu.be/1oWbWbIpEsM?t=13m12s more Pikmin to assist him]), [[Invisibility]] and [[Non-Corporeal]] ([https://www.pikminwiki.com/2-Player_Battle Can become transparent like a ghost]), [[BFR]] (Type 1. Can [https://youtu.be/3Efyxub1wZU?t=9m03s warp the position of the opponent to a random location with the] [https://pikmin.fandom.com/wiki/Bingo_Battle#Items Warp ability]), [[One Hit Kill]] ([https://pikmin.fandom.com/wiki/Bingo_Battle#Items Enemy Annihilator] [https://youtu.be/1oWbWbIpEsM?t=3m46s instantly kills any enemies in view]), and [[Electricity Manipulation|Lightning Manipulation]], [[Paralysis Inducement]], and possible [[Resistance Negation]] ([https://youtu.be/1oWbWbIpEsM?t=28m21s Can summon bolts of lightning which paralysis opponents with] [https://pikmin.fandom.com/wiki/Bingo_Battle#Items Lightning] which possibly bypass the Anti-Electrifier's immunity), [[Summoning]] and [[Explosion Manipulation]] (Can summon [https://youtu.be/1oWbWbIpEsM?t=6m17s boulders to land on opponents], [https://www.pikminwiki.com/2-Player_Battle various enemies around the foe], [https://youtu.be/3Efyxub1wZU?t=3m56s and] [https://pikmin.fandom.com/wiki/Bingo_Battle#Items several] [https://youtu.be/1oWbWbIpEsM?t=25m54s bombs])
|-|S.S Dolphin=
All previous powers. [[Spaceflight]], [[Inorganic Physiology]], [[Information Analysis]] and [[Cosmic Awareness]] (Can scan anomalies such as the [[Waterwraith]] and was able to deduce and sense that its physical form was [https://youtu.be/OM_GaDxSJPw?t=13m44s present in a separate dimension]), [[Dimensional Storage]], [[Radiation Manipulation]] ([https://pikmin.fandom.com/wiki/Radiation_Canopy#Notes The Radiation Canopy can transform and nullify space radiation]), [[Light Manipulation]] (Nova blaster is stated to emit a dazzling burst of light), [[Electricity Manipulation|Electricity Generation]] (Can generate electricty with the [https://pikmin.fandom.com/wiki/Positron_Generator#Notes Positron Generator]), Limited [[Purification]] ([https://pikmin.fandom.com/wiki/Anti-Dioxin_Filter#Notes Can filter out toxins to prevent pollution with the Anti-Dioxin Filter]), [[Gravity Manipulation]] (The Gravity Jumper can [https://pikmin.fandom.com/wiki/Gravity_Jumper#Notes manipulate gravity, allowing for easier takeoff and reentry on various planets]), Possible [[Matter Manipulation|Gluon Manipulation]] (The Gluon Drive is implied to [https://pikmin.fandom.com/wiki/Gluon_Drive#Notes metaphysically bind gluons to travel through space]), [[Regeneration]] (Mid. The Repair-Type Bolt can [https://pikmin.fandom.com/wiki/Repair-Type_Bolt#Notes repair anything in the ship, including the engine]), [[Space-Time Manipulation]] and [[Vibration Manipulation|Shockwave Generation]] ([https://pikmin.fandom.com/wiki/Nova_Blaster#Notes The Nova Blaster can send shockwaves through space-time]), [[Reality Warping]] and [[Transmutation]] ([https://pikmin.fandom.com/wiki/Chronos_Reactor#Notes The Chronos Reactor can warp space-time and transmutate it into pure energy]), [[Resistance]] to [[Radiation Manipulation|Cosmic Radiations]], [[Space-Time Manipulation]], and [[Reality Warping]] (Should be unaffected by its own weaponry which warps all of space and time)
</tabber>


'''[[Standard Equipment]]:''' [[Pikmin]], Whistle, Space Suit, Sprays, and the S.S Dolphin


'''[[Intelligence]]:''' '''Extraordinary Genius''' (Is a Scientist and Biologist who designed the Bowsprit for the S.S Dolphin. Studied the Pikmin species along with the enemy species to learn their weaknesses and how they act and react to things. Modified his ship and suit with technology he considered advanced and with only a night's time. Is a brilliant puzzle solver and has shown to work incredibly efficiently while under pressure)


'''Weaknesses:''' Must wear a spacesuit while on unknown planets. He mainly relies on his Pikmin to get work done, so losing all Pikmin causes him to become extremely depressed and drop everything he's doing to flee.


'''Notable Attacks/Techniques:'''


'''Pikmin Throw:''' Olimar throws his Pikmin at nearby foes for them to latch on and attack the enemy with their stems. This includes:
Given that it's also established his vegan powers are a mental trait unlocked by learning secret techniques of the mind rather than physical amplifications, it makes more sense for his "base form" to be continental regardless of vegan powers.


'''[[Pikmin|Red Pikmin]]:''' Immune to and can manipulate fire, along with doing more damage than a regular Pikmin.


'''[[Pikmin|Yellow Pikmin]]:''' Immune to and can absorb electricity, along with being lighter than other Pikmin.


'''[[Pikmin|Blue Pikmin]]:''' Immune to and can manipulate water, along with intake/breathe water as fish would.
Also, one major detail everyone seems to coincidentally ignore is that both of Todd's moon feats were done prior to getting his Vegan powers:


'''[[Pikmin|White Pikmin]]:''' Immune to and can induce toxins and acid, along with having enhanced senses.
http://imgur.com/gallery/Rq2xxO0


'''[[Pikmin|Purple Pikmin]]:''' Has the physical power of 10 Pikmin and can send vibrations through the ground that paralysis nearby foes.


'''[[Pikmin|Rock Pikmin]]:''' Pikmin with a solid rock-like body that are crush resistant and can shatter brittle surfaces like glass or crystal


'''[[Pikmin|Winged Pikmin]]:''' Pikmin with the ability to fly. They can carry Olimar to new heights and avoid grounded obstacles


==Other==
'''Notable Victories:'''


'''Notable Losses:'''
"Soon enough, the boy had to leave for the faraway school where he would learn the ancient secrets of his people, The Vegans. There on the train platform, the boy and girl vowed Always To Be True and Never To Waver."


[[Thread:14888|Hat Kid]] [[A Hat in Time|(A Hat in Time)]] - [[Hat Kid|Hat Kid's profile]] (Speed was equalized)


'''Inconclusive Matches:'''
 
{{Discussions}}
So not only is the idea that vegan powers amplify Todd when they activate baseless, but the biggest point against Scott and co scaling is completely nonexistent in the first place. And saying "He knew about the vegan powers prior as he was a vegan" is also a bad argument because it defeats the purpose of Vegan Academy even existing.
[[Category:Characters]]
 
[[Category:Male Characters]]
 
[[Category:Adults]]
 
[[Category:Video Game Characters]]
Even if we did assume Todd had his powers then, he wasn't even using them during his trip to the moon as shown by his hair in both the comic and the movie:
[[Category:Game Characters]]
 
[[Category:Playable Characters]]
https://youtu.be/vqqGZBRBLcM?t=1m08s
[[Category:Primary Protagonists]]
 
[[Category:Protagonists]]
https://scottpilgrim.fandom.com/wiki/Bryan_Lee_O%27Malley#:~:text=He%20is%20currently%20writing%20the,and%20published%20by%20Image%20Comics.&text=O'Malley%20also%20helped%20Edgar,as%20Lee's%20Palace%20Bar%20patrons
[[Category:Tier 10]]
 
[[Category:Tier 4]]
 
[[Category:Aliens]]
 
[[Category:Humanoid Characters]]
Todd is only continental physically
[[Category:Superhumans]]
 
[[Category:Acrobats]]
This is a weirder refute I've seen pop up recently. So ignoring the obvious issues with this like Scott significantly hurting Todd twice, along with Envy doing the exact same, the main issue I see people have is Todd's vegan powers being weaker than his physical power.
[[Category:Human Achievers]]
 
[[Category:Sound Users]]
 
[[Category:Empathic Users]]
 
[[Category:Purification Users]]
So the first reason for the two not scaling is the difference in destructive radius. Now if we assume that AoE damage = higher power, we are now accepting Bullets are weaker than a human punch. Confused? Look no further than our AP page.
[[Category:Mind Users]]
 
[[Category:Regeneration Users]]
https://debatesjungle.fandom.com/wiki/Attack_Potency
[[Category:Teleportation Users]]
 
[[Category:Immortals]]
 
[[Category:Small Size Users]]
 
[[Category:Petrification Users]]
"To explain this, take a hypothetical example of someone punching through an interior wall vs. bullet being shot at an interior wall wall. If a bullet is shot at a wall, the wall would have a small hole go through it, however if a person punches through a wall, a big hole would be left in place due to the size of the hand, with the logic of ignoring one's energy output in place for area of effect, the person's punch would in that scenario be stronger then a bullet."
[[Category:Durability Negation Users]]
 
[[Category:Power Nullification Users]]
 
[[Category:Statistics Amplification Users]]
 
[[Category:Rage Power Users]]
So the idea that AoE = AP gets debunked by simple logic, really.
[[Category:Information Users]]
 
[[Category:Cosmic Awareness Users]]
 
[[Category:Stealth Mastery Users]]
 
[[Category:Light Users]]
It's an outlier in the verse
[[Category:Summoners]]
 
[[Category:Invisibility Users]]
Don't see how this would be an outlier when characters like Matthew, who is seen as weak in comparison to the other fighters, casually busts through ceilings.
[[Category:Non-Corporeal Characters]]
 
[[Category:Nintendo]]
 
[[Category:Pikmin]]
 
[[Category:BFR Users]]
 
[[Category:OHK Users]]
 
[[Category:Paralysis Users]]
 
[[Category:Resistance Negation Users]]
 
[[Category:Electricity Users]]
Ramona effortlessly tears a metal pole apart to block Knives' attack
[[Category:Self-Sustenance Users]]
 
[[Category:Explosion Users]]
 
[[Category:Spaceflight Users]]
 
[[Category:Dimensional Storage Users]]
 
[[Category:Radiation Users]]
 
[[Category:Gravity Users]]
Knives jumps several stories in seconds with ease
[[Category:Matter Users]]
 
[[Category:Space Users]]
 
[[Category:Time Users]]
 
[[Category:Reality Warpers]]
 
[[Category:Transmutation Users]]
 
[[Category:Non-Physical Interaction Users]]
 
[[Category:Flight Users]]
 
[[Category:Non-Humans]]
Scott punches someone around the planet, which is backed up by Stephen Stills, which is done even prior to the series taking place:
[[Category:Tier 10-C]]
 
[[Category:Tier 4-C]]
http://imgur.com/gallery/gGhiPBV
 
 
 
 
 
And even Todd's moon feats are done with no difficulty and for absolutely no reason other than to express his emotions to Ramona/Envy:
 
http://imgur.com/gallery/0RU4mjK
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
So the idea that Todd's feats are outliers is questionable at best and downright wrong at worse. Also worth noting is Gideon is downright unimpressed with Todd's vegan powers and can't even be bothered to remember how important they are, which only further sumits it's not an outlier
 
 
 
 
 
Scott was losing against Todd the whole time
 
It's directly stated why and how Scott was losing, which came down to Todd's range which Scott directly says is his main issue:
 
http://imgur.com/gallery/JnNS3Ko
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
"I can't even get near him! I need some kind of...like...last minute, poorly-set-up Deux Ex Machina!"
 
 
 
That plus Scott's few blows actually hurting Todd + no-selling most of his attacks make it abundantly clear that Scott does scale.
 
 
 
Along with this, Gideon is all powerful within Ramona's head and is even called an "Ultradimensional super villain" in the extra character bios:
 
http://imgur.com/gallery/78s3dYH
 
 
 
 
 
Which further proves that Todd isn't just some oddball character who's leagues greater than the rest of the cast.
 
__________________________________
 
Breaking down each of Scott's feats for Todd scaling
 
 
 
Scott no-sells a vegan nuke from an enraged Todd
 
The first major argument against this feat is that Todd only imploded Honest Eds, thus he wasn't using his full power or exerting continental levels of AP:
 
http://imgur.com/gallery/kNZykhE
 
 
 
Problem is area of effect doesn't equate to destructive capability. Otherwise characters like Mario should be destroying star systems with his jumps. We're scaling Todd's AP here off his previous feat. Mind you, him destroying Honest Eds was done with far more effort than both of his moon pulverization feats.
 
 
 
 
 
The next refute people like to make is that, because it was an implosion, Scott didn't actually tank anything from Todd himself.
 
 
 
However in the very next panel, we see Honest Eds cracking and swelling up with light pouring out of the seams as if an explosion inside was occurring.
 
 
 
 
 
How would the attack from Todd hit the walls and roof of Honest Eds while perfectly avoiding Scott? This wouldn't make any sense and is more likely that Scott was caught in the blow that collapsed the building.
 
 
 
With this, there should be no reason for Scott not to scale to Todd's implosion. This isn't even the only instance of Scott tanking a direct attack from Todd either as we'll get into later.
 
 
 
Scott hits Todd enough to make him bleed
 
Shown here near the end of the book:
 
http://imgur.com/gallery/q4jB6cM
 
 
 
 
 
Another clear as day feat for scaling. The first major refute is that due to Todd being off guard, his durability suddenly drops from Continental to Wall which objectively makes no sense.
 
 
 
People like to use the scene where Goku gets pierced by a laser far lower than his current tier as if Dragon Ball sets the standards for vs debating. Major issue with this, the Dragon Ball verse is a major false equivalence given how Ki works in-verse.
 
https://dragonball.fandom.com/wiki/Ki#Ki_control
 
 
 
"Most beings cannot freely control their ki, but many who can manipulate it also learn to control the flow of ki within their bodies, allowing them to channel larger or smaller amounts of their ki reserves. In essence, they can adjust their strength to match the situation, and generate attacks which contain larger concentrations of ki than they are normally capable of. This ability is noted by Raditz when fighting Goku and Piccolo; whilst they had power levels of 416 and 408 respectively, their special attacks channelled such high levels of ki that they measured at 924 and 1,480. Despite being common amongst Earth's martial artists, this ability seems to be exceedingly rare in general, as the Frieza Force are continually surprised by the ability of Gohan, Krillin and the others to raise and suppress their power levels at will."
 
 
 
The only plausible explanation for something as dumb as a durability drop this massive is if his Vegan powers were like Ki and amplified his stats on command, which was adressed earlier on this blog.
 
 
 
Scott's other various feats of tanking Todd's attacks
 
There are several instances of Scott no-selling and clashing with Todd's attacks with the number one refute being Todd was holding back.
 
http://imgur.com/gallery/JnNS3Ko
 
http://imgur.com/gallery/pC1mfNY
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
At first, this seems like one of the few exceptions against Scott's scaling ignoring the original refute made against Todd holding back, however this is the same Todd who, while casually flying to the moon and punching a hole in it without the use of vegan powers, is going out of his way to dodge Scott's attacks:
 
http://imgur.com/gallery/0RU4mjK
 
http://imgur.com/gallery/HmS0ZUI
 
http://imgur.com/gallery/KvZHbaf
 
https://youtu.be/vqqGZBRBLcM?t=1m08s
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Not only is this odd for someone countless times higher than you to go out of their way to dodge your attacks, but he's even shown putting more effort into hurting Scott than he was when flying to the moon.
 
 
 
Scott Pilgrim's statement
 
So we've gone over the issues with Scott not scaling to Todd by showing several instances of Scott tanking and hurting Todd physically, and we addressed Bryan's statements.
 
 
 
And just to further establish Todd isn't the most powerful character in terms of physical stats, here Scott directly says each evil ex gets harder and harder each battle.
 
 
 
"Not that fighting harder and harder battles for your love is getting old or anything..."
 
 
 
Before anyone says this doesn't necessarily refer to stats, Matthew Patel is the most skilled ex prior to Roxie, which means it's not referring to Scott having his skill challenged. And it definitely doesn't mean strategy since Todd is considered dumber than Scott.
 
 
 
 
 
Lastly, Gideon one-shots a base Scott, who was the same Scott to beat Todd Ingram and is roughly comparable to him then. So they're definitely getting stronger:
 
http://imgur.com/gallery/1rmBpsX
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
This makes sense given Scott Pilgrim's laws are based and directly influenced by video games (I.e Save Points, Stat Boosts through food, leveling up, etcetera) with natural progression. So each boss being physically stronger than the last makes plenty of sense in the context of their world:
 
http://imgur.com/gallery/4voDQhv
 
http://imgur.com/gallery/3gv2nDu
 
http://imgur.com/gallery/vWzKMdI

Revision as of 04:27, 31 March 2021

Introduction

As of now, a majority of people have this idea that Todd is the most powerful Scott Pilgrim character and that nobody scales to him. This blog is here to debunk this idea since it's getting increasingly annoying facing the same arguments over and over again. If anyone has any disagreements with this blog, please share your thoughts and refutes in the comments.


Author and Official Statements

Clash at Demonhead Extras

To start, we have Todd's character draft description. This comes from the extra content pages in volume 2 about Clash At Demonhead where it states "He turned out to be bigger, stronger, and more powerful than Scott, but equally dumb, or even dumber."

Now there are several issues with this that I feel a lot of people blatantly ignore or just don't understand. For starters, the actual context of this statement refers to Todd's telekinetic ranged abilities. Todd doesn't actually ever fight Scott physically and just uses his ranged abilities. In both instances shown here, Scott misses and Todd responds by throwing him with his telekinesis. At best, this proves Todd has superior lifting strength, which means nothing in comparison to both's raw attack potency.

Secondly, as shown in the first scan, Todd goes out of his way to dodge Scott's punches. While this could be because he finds getting hit annoying, several other instances in the volume show otherwise. Him dodging these attacks are because he is more than aware of how strong Scott and co is, which directly affects how he chooses to fight Scott (Something Scott even says himself). Even if Scott was weaker than Todd, it wouldn't be to a massive degree that Scott could no longer scale to Todd.

Another thing to point out about the second statement is that O’Malley compares them to Ryu and Ken, Ryu and Ken are rivals around the same level, so all this would imply is that Todd is somewhat more powerful but not to an extent that would put him above Scott’s league.

Bryan's Tumblr Statement

Next off, we have Bryan's statement from tumbler which is fairly similar to the first one "Matthew went all-out because he sucks. Todd would never go all-out. If he went all-out, he wouldn’t be Todd. Todd is a smarmy jerk who wants to toy with Scott and feel cool and superior without trying. That’s the point of Todd."

First off, let's take a look at the original question here. "How come Todd Ingram didn't kill Scott in the beginning of volume 3? If he can punch a hole in the moon, couldn't he have finished off Scott the moment they met? At least Matthew Patel made the effort to go all-out in their first meeting." So based on the way the commenter views Todd, it's clear he doesn't see Scott as any more than an average joe who happens to know martial arts, which Bryan seems to follow along with. So by accepting what Bryan says about Todd, you alternatively accept Scott as an average human martial artist.

"That's a stupid argument! We don't know what either Todd or the reader are thinking!"

To a degree, this is true. However, we are expecting a casual reader and author to understand vs debate rules such as tiers, area of effect, scaling, and outliers. Of course they're going to say the dude who makes massive explosions is stronger. Heck, our Creation vs Destruction page paints this notion very clearly.

Furthermore, It's also important to note that this answer directly contradicts Todd's character. He's never shown to act cocky to the point of holding back to Scott's level or to torture Scott for fun, nor has this been stated by him or anyone else.

Funny enough, Who Bryan was really referring to in this question was Envy rather than Todd who happens to want to torment Scott for the past. It even says at the beginning of the volume that Todd doesn't want to make Scott suffer and just wants to end the fight as soon as possible




Todd is only continental with his Vegan Powers

Not only is this a wild assumption with no actual evidence, it narratively makes no sense. At no point is this ever mentioned or confirmed by Todd and he's even seen dodging attacks from Scott while in this "Vegan form" which defeats the entire premise of them being two different forms



Given that it's also established his vegan powers are a mental trait unlocked by learning secret techniques of the mind rather than physical amplifications, it makes more sense for his "base form" to be continental regardless of vegan powers.


Also, one major detail everyone seems to coincidentally ignore is that both of Todd's moon feats were done prior to getting his Vegan powers:

http://imgur.com/gallery/Rq2xxO0



"Soon enough, the boy had to leave for the faraway school where he would learn the ancient secrets of his people, The Vegans. There on the train platform, the boy and girl vowed Always To Be True and Never To Waver."


So not only is the idea that vegan powers amplify Todd when they activate baseless, but the biggest point against Scott and co scaling is completely nonexistent in the first place. And saying "He knew about the vegan powers prior as he was a vegan" is also a bad argument because it defeats the purpose of Vegan Academy even existing.


Even if we did assume Todd had his powers then, he wasn't even using them during his trip to the moon as shown by his hair in both the comic and the movie:

https://youtu.be/vqqGZBRBLcM?t=1m08s

https://scottpilgrim.fandom.com/wiki/Bryan_Lee_O%27Malley#:~:text=He%20is%20currently%20writing%20the,and%20published%20by%20Image%20Comics.&text=O'Malley%20also%20helped%20Edgar,as%20Lee's%20Palace%20Bar%20patrons


Todd is only continental physically

This is a weirder refute I've seen pop up recently. So ignoring the obvious issues with this like Scott significantly hurting Todd twice, along with Envy doing the exact same, the main issue I see people have is Todd's vegan powers being weaker than his physical power.


So the first reason for the two not scaling is the difference in destructive radius. Now if we assume that AoE damage = higher power, we are now accepting Bullets are weaker than a human punch. Confused? Look no further than our AP page.

https://debatesjungle.fandom.com/wiki/Attack_Potency


"To explain this, take a hypothetical example of someone punching through an interior wall vs. bullet being shot at an interior wall wall. If a bullet is shot at a wall, the wall would have a small hole go through it, however if a person punches through a wall, a big hole would be left in place due to the size of the hand, with the logic of ignoring one's energy output in place for area of effect, the person's punch would in that scenario be stronger then a bullet."


So the idea that AoE = AP gets debunked by simple logic, really.


It's an outlier in the verse

Don't see how this would be an outlier when characters like Matthew, who is seen as weak in comparison to the other fighters, casually busts through ceilings.




Ramona effortlessly tears a metal pole apart to block Knives' attack



Knives jumps several stories in seconds with ease




Scott punches someone around the planet, which is backed up by Stephen Stills, which is done even prior to the series taking place:

http://imgur.com/gallery/gGhiPBV



And even Todd's moon feats are done with no difficulty and for absolutely no reason other than to express his emotions to Ramona/Envy:

http://imgur.com/gallery/0RU4mjK





So the idea that Todd's feats are outliers is questionable at best and downright wrong at worse. Also worth noting is Gideon is downright unimpressed with Todd's vegan powers and can't even be bothered to remember how important they are, which only further sumits it's not an outlier



Scott was losing against Todd the whole time

It's directly stated why and how Scott was losing, which came down to Todd's range which Scott directly says is his main issue:

http://imgur.com/gallery/JnNS3Ko




"I can't even get near him! I need some kind of...like...last minute, poorly-set-up Deux Ex Machina!"


That plus Scott's few blows actually hurting Todd + no-selling most of his attacks make it abundantly clear that Scott does scale.


Along with this, Gideon is all powerful within Ramona's head and is even called an "Ultradimensional super villain" in the extra character bios:

http://imgur.com/gallery/78s3dYH



Which further proves that Todd isn't just some oddball character who's leagues greater than the rest of the cast.

__________________________________

Breaking down each of Scott's feats for Todd scaling


Scott no-sells a vegan nuke from an enraged Todd

The first major argument against this feat is that Todd only imploded Honest Eds, thus he wasn't using his full power or exerting continental levels of AP:

http://imgur.com/gallery/kNZykhE


Problem is area of effect doesn't equate to destructive capability. Otherwise characters like Mario should be destroying star systems with his jumps. We're scaling Todd's AP here off his previous feat. Mind you, him destroying Honest Eds was done with far more effort than both of his moon pulverization feats.



The next refute people like to make is that, because it was an implosion, Scott didn't actually tank anything from Todd himself.


However in the very next panel, we see Honest Eds cracking and swelling up with light pouring out of the seams as if an explosion inside was occurring.



How would the attack from Todd hit the walls and roof of Honest Eds while perfectly avoiding Scott? This wouldn't make any sense and is more likely that Scott was caught in the blow that collapsed the building.


With this, there should be no reason for Scott not to scale to Todd's implosion. This isn't even the only instance of Scott tanking a direct attack from Todd either as we'll get into later.


Scott hits Todd enough to make him bleed

Shown here near the end of the book:

http://imgur.com/gallery/q4jB6cM



Another clear as day feat for scaling. The first major refute is that due to Todd being off guard, his durability suddenly drops from Continental to Wall which objectively makes no sense.


People like to use the scene where Goku gets pierced by a laser far lower than his current tier as if Dragon Ball sets the standards for vs debating. Major issue with this, the Dragon Ball verse is a major false equivalence given how Ki works in-verse.

https://dragonball.fandom.com/wiki/Ki#Ki_control


"Most beings cannot freely control their ki, but many who can manipulate it also learn to control the flow of ki within their bodies, allowing them to channel larger or smaller amounts of their ki reserves. In essence, they can adjust their strength to match the situation, and generate attacks which contain larger concentrations of ki than they are normally capable of. This ability is noted by Raditz when fighting Goku and Piccolo; whilst they had power levels of 416 and 408 respectively, their special attacks channelled such high levels of ki that they measured at 924 and 1,480. Despite being common amongst Earth's martial artists, this ability seems to be exceedingly rare in general, as the Frieza Force are continually surprised by the ability of Gohan, Krillin and the others to raise and suppress their power levels at will."


The only plausible explanation for something as dumb as a durability drop this massive is if his Vegan powers were like Ki and amplified his stats on command, which was adressed earlier on this blog.


Scott's other various feats of tanking Todd's attacks

There are several instances of Scott no-selling and clashing with Todd's attacks with the number one refute being Todd was holding back.

http://imgur.com/gallery/JnNS3Ko

http://imgur.com/gallery/pC1mfNY




At first, this seems like one of the few exceptions against Scott's scaling ignoring the original refute made against Todd holding back, however this is the same Todd who, while casually flying to the moon and punching a hole in it without the use of vegan powers, is going out of his way to dodge Scott's attacks:

http://imgur.com/gallery/0RU4mjK

http://imgur.com/gallery/HmS0ZUI

http://imgur.com/gallery/KvZHbaf

https://youtu.be/vqqGZBRBLcM?t=1m08s






Not only is this odd for someone countless times higher than you to go out of their way to dodge your attacks, but he's even shown putting more effort into hurting Scott than he was when flying to the moon.


Scott Pilgrim's statement

So we've gone over the issues with Scott not scaling to Todd by showing several instances of Scott tanking and hurting Todd physically, and we addressed Bryan's statements.


And just to further establish Todd isn't the most powerful character in terms of physical stats, here Scott directly says each evil ex gets harder and harder each battle.


"Not that fighting harder and harder battles for your love is getting old or anything..."


Before anyone says this doesn't necessarily refer to stats, Matthew Patel is the most skilled ex prior to Roxie, which means it's not referring to Scott having his skill challenged. And it definitely doesn't mean strategy since Todd is considered dumber than Scott.



Lastly, Gideon one-shots a base Scott, who was the same Scott to beat Todd Ingram and is roughly comparable to him then. So they're definitely getting stronger:

http://imgur.com/gallery/1rmBpsX






This makes sense given Scott Pilgrim's laws are based and directly influenced by video games (I.e Save Points, Stat Boosts through food, leveling up, etcetera) with natural progression. So each boss being physically stronger than the last makes plenty of sense in the context of their world:

http://imgur.com/gallery/4voDQhv

http://imgur.com/gallery/3gv2nDu

http://imgur.com/gallery/vWzKMdI