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User:GiverOfThePeace/Sandbox for Rocco to Edit
Notice: This blog isn't originally mine but made by a previous user who has since disabled their fandom account globally. Though I initially provided much insight and helped on the blog thus I ported it to my blog. As usual with all of my blogs, this is a blog regarding this wiki's standards, do not try to apply these blogs outside of the wiki where standards are obviously different.
Yeah, this is definitely gonna be a controversial blog. I want to say that I once agreed with FTL and up JoJo's Bizarre Adventure myself, but I looked more heavily at the feats and realized a lot of issues with them. I'm not some random person from CharacterRant who has always had it out for JJBA or something like that. If you disagree with this blog, that's totally okay though. If you want to discuss the reasons you think as much, comments are enabled below. You can feel free to send whatever you want (as long as it doesn't violate the rules of the site ofc) if you want to make a response.
In order to make sure that I've properly covered the arguments people use for FTL JJBA, I've used the following blogs/discussions that are meant to support the idea:
- Austrian-Man-Meat's blog from the JoJo's Bizarre Adventure Wiki
- ArbitraryNumbers' blog from VS Battles Wiki
I've also used some other tidbits I've seen from other VS Battles Wiki and Reddit discussions on the matter, but these are the two most informative sources on the matter I could find. I also have heard some points during my time of VS Debating, but I mainly was going for sources where I wouldn't misrepresent the points. The points I'm covering on this blog are the ones listed by these two.
In this blog, I'm going to go through each feat sequentially and highlight the problems. In order to give the best representation I can too, I'm going to offer up the counterpoints people typically use for these discussions. You may notice some of them are set up as a narrative progression of events and get long because of that. I most do this in order to provide understanding of my points and lead people to where my conclusions are instead of just throwing them at people. That's my personal way of doing these types of blogs, so I'm sorry if that's not exactly something you like. I've gotten everything I've needed to say out of the way though. Without further ado, let's get into the feats!
Feat #1: Hanged Man Getting Sliced and Diced by Silver Chariot
Feat In Question:
Response:
Let's just get this out of the way since you probably already know what I'm going to say. Yes, this heavily relies on Polnareff already knowing the trajectory of Hanged Man to make this feat happen. There are literally numerous statements that outright explain this is the only way he was going to tag him.
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Polnareff explains how he used the trajectory to previously hit Hanged Man.
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Kakyoin's coin flip was to let him know what direction Hanged Man was going
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Kakyoin confirms this to Polnareff.
I have one more thing to add here as well. J. Geil flat-out says that they wouldn't be able to keep up with his stand if the amount of surfaces to reflect off was in a higher number, confirming that Polnareff does indeed need to know the path ahead of time to make this feat work. I want to make a note that I am aware that the lower half of the scan also has it to where Polnareff and Kakyoin obviously don't want to hurt the bystanders here. However, that doesn't mitigate the earlier statement where J. Geil says they wouldn't be able to hit Hanged Man because of the amount of surfaces it can jump back to either. The latter part just adds another restriction contextually to the scene and doesn't alter what he says really.
Also, I need to clarify this because people seem to have the wrong idea when others make this refute. Nobody is saying there isn't a degree of sufficient speed needed to likely pull of this feat. What they're arguing is that it's not as impressive as others make it out to be because it's only done when they can predict it.
Potential Counterargument:
Polnareff is able to see Hanged Man actually move if you look at the panels. He keeps track of the movements of the light beam from one object to another. The Anime and the OVA directly show him seeing the light beam itself.
Response to Potential Counterargument:
Okay, let's take a step back and look at what's being said. Polnareff is "seeing" the light? This is not how typical light works. You can usually only detect light when it makes contact with a surface, not actually see it right away.
| “ | Do you see the light or the reflected light? How do we see the light ray here? It is the surfaces of dust particles which reflect the light. From big planets to minuscule dust particles, without SURFACES, we do not "see" light. | „ |
| ~ Archinect |
| “ | A photon is a boson particle. It can't actually be detected. What we detect is when a photon strikes something. It's the collision we detect. At the moment of collision, a photon no longer exists. Everything we know about light, is deduced by detecting these collisions. Light itself is undetectable. It neither emits, nor reflects anything which would allow us to detect it. | „ |
| ~ LessWrong |
What's more likely happening here is that Polnareff is noticing the collision of Hanged Man's light on the reflective surfaces. The way the Manga has it set up even seems to compliment this idea more than anything. As for the OVA and the Anime? Well, the OVA is actually pretty consistent with this idea too. The Anime version is a bit more weird, but we wouldn't really follow that one regardless since it's an adaptation adding a detail not necessarily implied by the Manga. And before you ask about how we can see it, it's more likely done like this so that the viewer has a clear understanding of how Hanged Man is moving. Light can potentially be more visible if it's specifically highly energized to be that way, but there would need to be proof that Hanged Man actually fits that sort of idea if anything. So no, Polnareff isn't going to get SoL reactions for what is literally just seeing something reflect on surfaces.
Sub-Point Counterargument to Response:
Polnareff says that he saw Hanged Man move to different reflective surfaces. That means he actually saw the light unlike what you're implying.
Response to Sub-Point Counterargument to Response:
Let's take a look at the scans that are actually supposed to prove this, shall we?
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Polnareff telling Kakyoin to stay away from reflective surfaces and how he saw Hanged Man do this.
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Polnareff and Kakyoin discussing the ability of Hanged Man.
There is literally nothing here that states he saw Hanged Man move as a beam of light as people insinuate. All he says is that he saw him go from one reflective surface to the next, which is something even normal people can do. Actually, Kakyoin is the one who says he uses light, not even Polnareff. You could say that Polnareff just didn't mention it here before Kakyoin did, but I'd argue this more likely than not hurts the idea that Polnareff "sees" Hanged Man moving as light since this is treated as a moment of realization narratively. It's also more likely to be this interpretation because Polnareff literally says that normally he is unable to hit Hanged Man (With this scan ironically saying that Hanged Man isn't even moving at the speed of light). I think we've thoroughly debunked this point now.
Another Sub-Point Counterargument to Response:
This logic would downgrade every other character in fiction with light beams too with your logic. Their beams can be seen, so I guess you're saying nobody can FTL or have legitimate laser feats.
Response to Another Sub-Point Counterargument to Response:
This literally ignores so much of what I've said that it isn't funny. Firstly, visible light does exist. I even said this above. I just said most light isn't typically visible. Regardless, a lot of these light/laser beams in fiction are already highly energized, right? You can take Kizaru from One Piece as a reference. His beams are just innately highly energized. Those beams are fine. If Hanged Man is natural light, chances are just that you won't see him. If you're saying even if we want to list more verses affected by this potentially, I'd love to hear. I asked several people for lists, and they couldn't give a "huge list" like some people have proclaimed.
Another Potential Counterargument:
Polnareff actually does this feat twice. He even slashes Hanged Man before the coin toss. There's no reason for FTL to not be consistent.
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Polnareff takes his initial swing.
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Hanged Man ends up in Polnareff's eye.
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Hanged Man bleeds from being struck.
Response to Another Potential Counterargument:
The problem with this one is the exact same problem as the most notable instance of this: he predicts the trajectory ahead of time to do this. I'm going to just quote Polnareff on this so you can know I'm not misrepresenting the character dialogue.
| “ | I'm not entirely sure how it works... ...But he's moving at the speed of light. That's faster than any person could see. I knew that once the kid closes his eyes, the only place he can go is to my eye! With all that in mind, I was able to figure out its trajectory! | „ |
| ~ Polnareff |
He kicked the dust into the kid's eye knowing that he would slash in that path ahead of time. What matters isn't really the consistency of it. It's the fact that Polnareff needs to outright know what path Hanged Man is taking to even attempt slashing at him. Considering the only two instances we have of Hanged Man being slashed by Polnareff are when he has to predict the movement for the feat to happen, I'm pretty sure you can understand why people take issue with that being classified as raw combat/reaction speed.
Yet Another Potential Counterargument:
Polnareff is consistently shown to bring out Silver Chariot only after Hanged Man leaves the beggar's eye. You can see this very evidently in the Anime and the OVA adaptations of this scene.
Anime: https://imgur.com/rEBWAJZ
OVA: https://imgur.com/ngDaTvK
Response to Yet Another Potential Counterargument:
It literally only appears this in those two adaptations. The way the Manga has it much more ambiguous on how the process goes down.
He just says "now" and slashes him. What kind of setup Polnareff actually has here is not as explicit as the Anime or the OVA. In the OVA, he literally races up toward it to do the slash at the last second. In the Anime, he just summons it after Hanged Man starts moving and intercepts him then. Both share in common that they come out afterward, but the actual process of doing it is incredibly different between the two. This is somewhat hard to use as "definitive proof" when they are radically different with only a few common aspects. Polnareff screaming "now" doesn't necessarily mean that's when his stand comes out either. It's more likely that he's referring to the moment he does the slash if anything.
Sub-Point Counterargument to Response:
You have no reason to assume that Chariot was already out before the slash. The burden of proof is on you to show why.
Response to Sub-Point Counterargument to Response:
I thought this was simple, but I guess I should explain this again for more clarity. Literally the first time we see Polnareff do this exact same thing, he already had Chariot out in order to do this. If he's going to replicate the exact same thing, I'd wager he'd likely do it the same way he did it the first time when it worked.
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Polnareff begins his speech to J. Geil here.
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Silver Chariot is literally by Polnareff's side right here.
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After Chariot is out, Polnareff kicks sand into the kid's eye. That's when he does the slash afterward.
Let me break this down so that I don't miss a beat. Polnareff begins to do his speech about triumph. Mid-way, we see Silver Chariot by his side as he does this. Afterward, that's when he does a kick into the kid's eye with the sand. Finally, he slashes at Hanged Man. I'm making my argument based on something we've seen Polnareff do. Saying I've not met the burden of proof is literally dumb.
Yet Yet Another Potential Counterargument:
Polnareff knew that Hanged Man was moving at the speed of light. He could only tell that if he himself could perceive at those speeds.
Response to Yet Yet Another Potential Counterargument:
This is unironically worse than the Koichi argument (you'll have to see that one further down below). Polnareff says he moves at the speed of light because Kakyoin told him the stand acts as light, and he realized it bounces off of reflective surfaces. Hell, in the exact same scan he says that it does that, he says that he can't hit Hanged Man moving at such speed. You cannot scale someone to something when they literally say they can't hit it. This is scaling to True Kingdom Hearts all over again but for JJBA.
Yet Yet Yet Another Potential Counterargument:
It really doesn't matter regardless how you frame it. Chariot moved in tandem with Hanged Man to do the slice in the Manga.
Response to Yet Yet Yet Another Potential Counterargument:
This doesn't change anything either. He does the slice by predicting the trajectory and possibly already having Chariot out. This is more of a precision feat at this point, and Silver Chariot has incredibly high precision.
Bonus Debunk Material:
Hanged Man likely isn't even moving at the speed of light as there are times in the arc where, Hanged Man is only described as being essentially light or that he is moving at almost the speed of light. Hanged Man's JOJO-A-GOGO description also backs this up.
| “ | 本体が隠れて攻撃できる射程距離の長さもさることながら、光に近いスピードで移動できるのが特徴。軌道を読んで攻撃を仕掛けるためには、かなりのスピードが必要だ。 | „ |
| ~ Original Kanji |
| “ | Its specialty is not only its large attack range and ability to hide its body, but also its ability to move near the speed of light. In order to read its trajectory and launch an attack, considerable speed is necessary. | „ |
| ~ Translation |
This description says that it only moves near the speed of light rather than at it. This would somewhat make calcing the feat hard considering moving "near the speed of light" is somewhat hard to quantify. This just serves to further dampen the FTL JoJo's arguments.
Potential Counterargument:
Hanged Man moving near the speed of light would still be something like 90% SoL. It wouldn't change the feat that much.
Response to Another Potential Counterargument:
The idea that it's 90% or above is a very highballed interpretation of "near" something. What that means is a relative idea. It could be as low as Sub-Relativistic in actuality all the way to Relativistic+. The uncertainty would still make the feat less impressive; that's all I was getting at.
Feat #2: Jotaro Stated to Exceed the Speed of Light
Statement In Question:
Response:
I can already tell you're asking how this can be refuted. When you look at the scan, it does say "Ability: Faster than the speed of light" after all. Honestly though, the wording here has always seemed kind of odd. Look at the entire phrase to see what I mean.
| “ | Ability: Faster than the speed of light. When fully developed (when Jotaro was 18 years old) can stop time for a maximum of five seconds. Added with its power and precision, it is the world's strongest and invincible stand. | „ |
| ~ Stand Description |
It seemed like the way this was worded was more in reference to how the Time Stop causes this than anything. The two posts I linked defending FTL JJBA had two counterarguments for this idea though. The first one was that Star Platinum's speed is one of the highlight features of the stand, and the second one was that the reference to moving faster than the speed of light and time stop are separated into two different sentences. Fair enough, both points are pretty valid with this current scan that we're using. You probably noticed that I italicized the "this" in my last sentence, so you know there's a catch. The catch is that it's like that for this specifically translated scan. I got some Japanese raw scans from a friend, so I was curious if any other translations would offer different results from the current scan.
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The original Japanese version of the prior scan
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Another Japanese description of Star Platinum
(Note: The second scan doesn't add anything really to this argument. My friend sent it because we were double checking if any other scans add onto this speed of light bit, but the second one just mentions the time stop with that being it)
Needless to say, I asked an official translation Reddit what their translation came out as (backup). While it wasn't incredibly different from the original, it was different enough to note a massive difference in the speed of light portion.
| “ | Stand Name: Star Platinum Body (host?): Jotaro Kujo (Joline's father)
Destructiveness: A Speed: A Range: C Stamina: A Accuracy (precise movements): A Growth: Complete Skills: In his prime (18 yo), because it moved so fast, it could surpass the speed of light to stop time in this world. Additionally, its "power" and "accuracy" are also very high. It really is the greatest Stand power second to none. Reference: 3rd arc of Jojo's Bizzare Adventure (vol. 8 to 17) JO-JO-A-GO!GO! (stands) A - Super amazing B - Amazing C - Human level D - Not good E - Really not good |
„ |
| ~ Reddit Translation |
This translation seems to directly imply that the Time Stop is directly related to the speed. Not only that, it says that it reaches this speed during the actual time stop specifically. If you want to go even further, the text says this is during his prime. Jotaro only fully unlocked Time Stop when he was facing off against DIO, who had this exact same ability. This would literally just make end of Part 3 DIO and Jotaro FTL, and that would be it. If we want to be more generous though and say it applies beyond that, it would still only apply during stopped time. If Jotaro is only moving at these speeds when time is stopped, it honestly doesn't help the verse's scaling for anyone else, aside from DIO, as literally nobody else can move in it.
Potential Counterargument:
"FTL via time stop" isn't a thing. Stopping time isn't a boost in your speed; it's slowing everything around you down to a literal standstill while you're still able to move, so stopping time is INFINITE speed (using VS Battles' speed system)/EXTRA-TEMPORAL speed (using our speed system) in short bursts. Why would being stated to be faster than light be a reference to stopping time, when stopping time is leagues above FTL movements?
Response to Potential Counterargument:
I actually found this refute in one of the blogs, so I decided to just C+P it over in order to not potentially misrepresent the point. Anyway, let's dissect this because the refutes here honestly make no sense.
Firstly, how moving in stopped time is perceived by VS Debaters versus how everyone else does two completely different things. This mentality applies much beyond even moving in stopped time too. Let's just give a couple examples to demonstrate what I mean. Lightning should move at Mach 1294 on average, but Electro's lightning is stated to move at 1,100 ft/s, which is slower than even Mach 1. There are also a lot of verses that treat traveling traveling through time as moving at the speed of light, yet we treat these kinds of feats as generally being Immeasurable (using VS Battles' speed system)/Extra-Temporal (using our speed system). Now, we can give the benefit of the doubt on some of these, but I don't see why we should do so for JJBA. If anything, perceiving things at a halt, like stopped time, because moving faster than the speed of light has a technical basis through time dilation.
| “ | We know that an object, or a light beam's, speed measures the distance traversed over time. How can we reconcile this relationship with the fact that a light beam's measured speed remains constant for all observers, moving or stationary? Time dilation affects this reconciliation.
Time dilates on moving vessels: the greater the speed, the greater the time dilation. Only when such velocities* approach light speed do such effects become significant. If, and this one of those extreme IF's, a vessel could attain light speed, time aboard the vessel would cease altogether. Any person on that vessel would experience nothing at all. Though Spock and Kirk are able to trade barbs and witticisms at warp, in the real world, they would experience no time at all. Let's say, to play with this fantasy world a bit, that a vessel moves at light speed from now (2014) to 2214. For us, two hundreds years would elapse. No time would pass at all on the vessel. What would be two centuries on Earth would be instantaneous on the ship. |
„ |
| ~ University of Southern Maine |
And before you even ask... No, I'm not saying their Time Stop is just accelerating themselves for time dilation. That wouldn't make any sense for a scene like this. What I'm getting at here is that it's likely a mixture of genuine Time Stop with some borrowed functions of time dilation for the verse. I'm also explaining that acting like the speed of light has no relation to perceiving things as stopped time is also wrong. This section was more or less trying to explain how "FTL via Time Stop" could make sense for the person saying it doesn't. If I really wanted to, I could've just said it's something you have to accept with how JoJo specifically treats it. You can get some actual understanding now for why it can make sense. None of this should change the fact that we shouldn't be acting like VS Debating's interpretation takes priority either.
Another Potential Counterargument:
Why should I take this Reddit translation over the first scan you posted? It just comes from a random Redditor after all.
Response to Another Potential Counterargument:
The people who post these translations on r/translator have specific rules to follow, one of which is that you can't use machine-generated answers to respond to posts in the community.
| “ | Please don't post fake or joke translations, and don't copy-and-paste Google Translate output and call it your translation. This should be self-explanatory. Our users have been pretty unanimous about this: joke translations get downvoted, reported, and marked as spam, and the offense may be grounds for a ban from the subreddit. The regulars here don't find joke translations funny, so if you're looking for cheap internet points, please direct your browser elsewhere. (per u/smokeshack) Furthermore, there's a reason why people submit to this subreddit, and it's not because they want gibberish from Google Translate or other automated translation utilities regurgitated back to them. 99.99% of the time, Google Translate output is riddled with vocabulary, grammar, and tone mistakes. (Example: As of 14 July 2016, Google Translate renders "I can't understand Chinese" as 我不明白中国, "I can't realize China.") | „ |
| ~ r/translator's Description |
This means that the people posting these translations have to do this manually. Often, they are verified on their legitimacy too. The actual translation is pretty comprehensive and not too far off from the original scan either. The original scan's inclusion of the speed of light feels relatively out of place in comparison to the rest of it too. This translation provides an understanding of why it's included. Given the culmination of these factors, I and others I know feel inclined to take this version of an English translation over the prior one.
Sub-Point Counterargument to Response:
I used different internet translators to get a different result to this where it doesn't show the same thing. I cannot trust your translation because of that.
Response to Sub-Point Counterargument to Response:
Really? Relying on autogenerated, incoherent rubbish over a person? Internet machine translators are almost always inferior to human translation. You can find an entire list of reasons here that details this idea. To summarize it though, languages are complex and very hard to switch between the two. Some of them have different sentence structures, things like gendered nouns, and even more differences that make it all the more difficult. Literally, just put thought into why we still have human translators staffed on these companies. It's because machines haven't evolved enough to the point that they can make intricate translations on the same level of understanding. The description I linked for the Reddit even has them going over this.
Another Sub-Point Counterargument to Response:
You still have given us no reason to trust this Redditor over the official translation. Your only reasoning was that the previous wording was out of place. This one feels more out of place if anything.
Response to Another Sub-Point Counterargument to Response:
I don't see why this would be out place. There's a reason for why the speed of light statement is there in this translated version. The first one just opened with it randomly without much of a reference. Also, I can just give you another reason rather simply. Official translators are working to translate the entire manga and work in partnership with the people who put the English versions on the pages. Their job is more expansive than the verified Reddit translator who only has to do one page. Obviously, they have more room and likeliness for error because of that. Official doesn't necessarily mean better either. Nintendo of America says hi if you think that's automatically the case.
I think we can mark this one as being thoroughly debunked.
Feat #3: Red Hot Chili Peppers Moving at the Speed of Light
Statement In Question:
Response:
I'm fine with RHCP being SoL, but I don't see why we would scale every stand in the verse off of this anyway. In his fight with Okuyasu, RHCP consistently blitzes The Hand and says he's too slow to hit him with the swipes. In practically all of the moments where The Hand actually does land something, it's because Akira is either distracted, forgot about The Hand's ability that allows him to spatially teleport things or himself, or he acts dumb cocky enough to let it happen (something he thinks about after he gets pummeled by Josuke from being cocky too). RHCP does all of this when he specifically isn't at his strongest either (Koichi even remarks this about his speed as Okuyasu can't even keep with RHCP's movement once he gets to his normal state).
Let's look at his fights with Josuke. Maybe I'm just missing something as some would say, and Okuyasu might just be the outlier here. Welp, it turns out it's the exact same problem, nevermind. The first fight isn't really worth discussing since it just involves RHCP being cocky af, initially getting pummeled by Josuke because of that, and he immediately overpowers him when he becomes serious. That's stuff you can find in the previous paragraph if you think my summarization is wrong here. Anyway, onto the second fight. The very first thing that happens in the fight is that RHCP moves so fast that it moves Josuke without him noticing, and it turns Crazy Diamond's attack 180 degrees in the opposite direction. He does this so fast that Josuke thought that Akira was the one that moved. It's not looking very good on them scaling tbh but let's continue. Josuke then proceeds to show his inability to tag RCHP after getting tagged by it, even when Koichi made him aware that RHCP was behind him. I think this entire sequence shows why scaling them is even further erroneous when RCHP moves so fast it leaves literal afterimages to Josuke. For those of you saying Koichi should scale because he calls out RHCP's movements or that the afterimages are just for stylistic confusion, this panel is for you. I think I've made my point. Adding further insult to injury, Josuke only manages to tag RHCP when he knows where he's coming from ahead of time. Perhaps theirs a turning point though? Nope. Josuke just plans out his moves again to beat Akira by exploiting his hastiness. This is after he gets overpowered and blitzed once again btw. So once again, RHCP is just blitzing someone consistently until he does fuck ups.
He casually outspeeds Josuke and Okuyasu when he isn't actively being stupid or constrained for the sake of plot. I think it's pretty safe to say none of them should scale speed-wise.
Potential Counterargument:
Koichi says that Jotaro would be able to handle Red Hot Chili Peppers in the exact same lightspeed statement scan you posted. That just means we should downscale everyone else from Star Platinum: The World because characters like Josuke have shown they are comparable to it. This doesn't change anything when it comes to them scaling.
Response to Potential Counterargument:
When they are talking about Star Platinum being a threat to RHCP speed-wise, they consistently talk about how it's specifically because of Time Stop. RHCP even implies he can blitz Jotaro as long as he doesn't stop time too. You may say that RHCP was saying this just to bait Okuyasu here, but it's also consistent with previous scans where he says that time stopping is the main issue if he faces Jotaro. This really isn't even a matter of him being cocky too if that's something else you want to argue. Akira/RHCP is correct in a lot of assumptions, such as Okuyasu being far slower than him, but he's cocky in that he lets what he knows further underestimate people than he should. It seems rather consistent that the intent of Star Platinum negating a speed advantage is because of Time Stop rather than its own raw speed. So no, this still doesn't mean people would scale to RHCP properly.
Sub-Point Counterargument to Response:
Why should we take RHCP seriously here? He can't prove he can blitz Jotaro. Also, he could just be talking shit like you even said he does as part of his cockiness.
Response to Sub-Point Counterargument to Response:
Okay, let me reverse this logic on you since this meant to be a pro-Star Platinum argument. How can we prove that Jotaro can keep up with RHCP? It's just a statement, and we can't prove that Star Platinum can. See, it's literally just as easy to pull that argument against your side of the argument as it is mine if we think this is a good idea. I think that alone demonstrates why that line of thinking isn't that great.
As for RHCP being cocky, I already addressed this. RHCP is cocky because he knows he can do these things, but he has such an overconfidence in his ability to do these things that he fucks it up. He says the Hand is slow to him, right? He easily avoids attacks from it and gets in numerous jabs because it's that slow. He thinks Josuke with his Crazy Diamond is beneath him, right? He literally repositions Josuke and turns out Crazy Diamond's attack 180 degrees without Josuke even noticing. His cockiness isn't really what makes him think he can do these things; it's what hinders him because he just further underestimates people based on what he knows. So yeah, I think it's pretty reasonable to conclude that he could outspeed Jotaro and Star Platinum with general logic. He's consistently stated the thing that worries him is just the Time Stop.
Another Potential Counterargument:
Josuke was able to restore Okuyasu's body back to his arm and away from an RHCP traveling at the speed of light. This would make his restoration speed FTL. Did you just forget about that.
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Scan 1
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Scan 2
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Scan 3
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Scan 4
Response to Another Potential Counterargument:
I'm going to just play Devil's Advocate for this case and say it's fine. Sure, Josuke's Restoration speed can be FTL. Now, I want to pose a very simple question. What actually scales Josuke's restoration speed to his combat speed? The speed of which the limbs come flying back to people seems rather independent of Josuke's actual fighting speed as far as I can tell. There should be some actual evidence that the two can scale normally. This instance seems far more like an anti-feat for them scaling too. The same panel people use for RHCP moving at the speed of light also has Koichi admitting that only Jotaro can match something like that (which we've covered this too). This would be saying that the narrative is wrong, Josuke getting blitzed previously by RHCP was just a hoax, and that Josuke's Crazy Diamond is actually faster than RHCP despite character statements saying otherwise. So yeah, I hope you can tell why I have a problem with this argument as well.
Just to clarify, I would be fine with Red Hot Chili Peppers being SoL. However, I just don't think there's a good way to accurately scale this to anyone.
Yet Another Potential Counterargument:
How would Koichi be able to tell that RHCP is moving at the speed of light if he couldn't perceive at a comparable speed himself? That should prove that they can all perceive at FTL speeds if someone like Koichi can.
Response to Yet Another Potential Counterargument:
No, this isn't me trying to act like JJBA debaters grasp at straws for arguments. This is something someone legitimately tried to argue supported the FTL ratings for the verse. Koichi doesn't just magically reach SoL reactions because he can tell someone can move at the speed of light. Let's just establish that Koichi is somewhat nerdy right off the bat. You could easily look up how the energy travels around the speed of light for the flow of electrons through a conductor. Koichi probably didn't look this up on the internet considering this is the '90s obviously, but you get the general idea it's something he could've learned or heard of. Considering this is a series that is full of characters who like to make weird references and allusions, it honestly wouldn't be that out of place to assume that Koichi just naturally knows what speed RHCP would have to travel at. If he just knows that fact too, it's pretty obvious that he wouldn't just automatically reaction scale to that. Remember, this is even further supported when Koichi admits he can't actually perceive how fast RHCP is moving. Acting like this proves they are FTL is honestly dumb when you look at general context.
Yet Yet Another Potential Counterargument:
Koichi could just be lowballing RHCP's speed to the speed of light. It's very likely he could just be moving a lot faster, so that can be why he can be blitzing MFTL Stands.
Response to Yet Yet Another Potential Counterargument:
I've already explained how RHCP's speed is connected to a scientific idea in the previous section. Arguing that Koichi is lowballing here literally makes no sense and is an unjustified headcanon made out of convenience.
I think we've addressed all of the arguments when it comes to this specific point, so we should probably move on to the next one.
Feat #4: Joseph and Caesar Reacting to a Laser
Feat In Question:
Response:
I'm not sure what there is to even say for this one. From the way the panel frames it, the laser is already passed Caesar and looks like it's about to pass Joseph too. What they're dodging more realistically here is likely the explosion from the beam, not the actual laser itself. That seems more likely what's intended given they seem to be looking down at the explosion as the subject of concern.
Potential Counterargument:
They were moving even before the laser hit the ship. We can clearly see this in the panel. Also, the explosion could be just as fast as the laser even if we wanted to say they didn't.
Response to Potential Counterargument:
I'm not sure if we're viewing the same panel here if this is the argument. There is literally nothing showing that they were already moving when the laser is fired. It's completely out of Caesar and Joseph's way, and it looks like they haven't even moved while it's still mid-fire. The only time we actually see them move in the panel is by the time we see a resulting explosion.
Also, I don't know where the idea that the explosion equals lightspeed too comes from. Detonation velocity is a completely separate thing from the speed of the beam, it's just that simple.
Sub-Point Counterargument to Response:
If he didn't move though, he would have been hit in the crouch. There is a calc that shows how Joseph can be 2c from this feat.
Response to Sub-Point Counterargument to Response:
The way this calc is done is incredibly odd. Firstly, the entire basis of this calc involves taking a different scene entirely to pixel scale. Then, it's using said pixel scaling as the only reason to justify that Joseph should have dodged the beam this way, even though nothing on the panel shows that. Finally, the perspective of the panel is just very odd in general. I don't particularly like using the pixel scaling here either because it essentially relies on Araki likely not drawing Joseph a more considerable distance away from the light. It's basically that we're calcing this because his intention wasn't scientifically accurate, but that might just be me. Given the culmination of the previous things and just the general uncertainty of it, this would be an ambiguous feat at best that shouldn't be used due to contextually how odd it is.
Another Potential Counterargument:
Joseph literally says "That was close!" after the laser is done. He was clearly referring to the fact that he reacted to it there.
Response to Another Potential Counterargument:
This is ignoring the fact that it's literally accompanied by an explosion afterward. Afterward, that's when Joseph says the line. Mangas are read right to left too, not left to right like comics. It's very clear the statement is made after the explosion happens. This is also neglecting the fact that the way they're looking down afterward seems like they were more focused on the explosion than the laser itself. The explosion is clearly the thing that would have caused more harm here too logically, not the laser.
I think we've adequately covered why this point shouldn't be used. It's on to the next feat.
Feat #5: Kars Reacting to Stroheim's Ultraviolet Light Beam
Feat In Question:
Response
This one is probably the only one I can see as possibly being legitimate, but I still have multiple problems with it. The beam itself is mainly what I take issue in. Literally in the panel right after this, Stroheim says they made the beam somehow five times stronger than the ones used in Rome. I'm rather sure that you can't make light "five times stronger" like for power here like Stroheim is implying. The only way I can think that it would do this is by adding mass or something, but it wouldn't be lightspeed by that point. The very fact it's weaponized like this already makes me doubt its legitimacy. However, what makes this worse is that it looks more like a plasma beam than actual light. And yes, plasma can emit light. A friend also wanted me to point out that the actual way the UV rays are output is somewhat inconsistent too. There is also the fact that we see something that is indisputably a beam of light from an Aja stone, it completely blitzes Esidisi.
With the amount of inconsistencies the beam has and the lack of general proof that it meets the requirements necessary to fully be one, I'm not sure we can even use this as a proper FTL feat.
Potential Counterargument:
It's literally called an ultraviolet light beam. That's a specific kind of light, and it should have more proof than most general light with that alone. Also, it's used in a similar fashion to weaken the Pillar Men as actual sunlight. It should be fine to be light.
Response to Potential Counterargument:
Do you want to know something funny? The fact that it's specifically ultraviolet light that's being seen here immediately debunks it being legitimate light. You cannot see ultraviolet light; that's literally why it's not categorized under visible light. The type of light that's involved with the feat ironically debunks itself.
| “ | In this chapter we will learn about visible light. We call it visible light because we can see it with our own eyes. There are different forms of light which we cannot see with our naked eyes. Ultraviolet light is an example of a form of light which we cannot see with just our eyes. We will focus our attention on the visible light spectrum and investigate how we are able to see different colours and how light behaves. | „ |
| ~ Siyavula |
I just want to say even if we ignored that, it wouldn't change anything. Both of the things stated would literally just fall under one of the requirements for Light Standards, which is that it has a light composition. Our Light Dodging Feats page has that as only a supporting requirement; it cannot be the main one by itself. You might say you want to use VS Battles instead because you don't trust us then. This would ironically be even less acceptable under their standards than ours if you want to go that route. It only meets one of their standards when it realistically needs to meet multiple. Again, this is ignoring the blatant other problems that would contradict this being a legitimate light beam too. If a Cyborg Nazi screaming a name somehow is enough to make something light, we're gonna be upgrading a lot of verses now. Even if it were legitimate, Esidisi being blitzed by a legitimate laser from a further distance would contradict this feat and make it a demonstrable outlier.
Sub-Point Counterargument to Response:
Why are we still ignoring that it's called an ultraviolet ray here? Stroheim should know whether or not something is an ultraviolet light beam. Implying he doesn't know what it actually is would be illogical.
Response to Sub-Point Counterargument to Response:
Nobody is "ignoring" the statement in regard to this refute. The problem is that the beam isn't consistent enough to meet light standards. Also, this completely misses the point on how we even evaluate light statement. We don't do it solely based on how characters view something labeled as "light" in-universe; we do it from an outsider perspective to see if it aligns with realistic properties of light. This logic could literally be applied to any verse, and we wouldn't be able to have light requirements if our thinking was this shallow. Literally any instance of a laser would have to be immediately accepted as SoL if we went by this logic. That's the entire point of having light standards; it's to evaluate whether or not a verse is properly insinuating something as light.
Another Sub-Point Counterargument to Response:
I don't see how seeing ultraviolet light is a problem here. You've not really gone over why it can't be seen other than a weird quote. Also, the people here have superhuman sensing capabilities. Kars is a Pillar Men for one, Stroheim has technological amplifications, and Joseph later becomes a Stand user with Araki saying he even has Hermit Purple in Part 2.
Response to Another Sub-Point Counterargument to Response:
Perhaps I've not provided enough explanation on the ultraviolet thing for people not to understand why this is a problem. Our Light Standards page explains this, but I'll give a brief rundown. Humans can only see light wavelengths ranging from 380 to 700 nanometers. This is why we give the label of "visible light" to the color spectrum we can see, ROYGBIV (Red, Orange, Yellow, Green, Blue, Indigo, & Violet). The problem is that ultraviolet rays have a wavelength too short for humans to perceive. If ordinary people can perceive it without any problem, that is an inherent contradiction to how ultraviolet rays work. There is absolutely no way around this as that's just how it is.
Anyway, let's address the superhuman argument here. Kars does have Enhanced Senses, I will give people that. However, I don't think it's implied his eyesight is specifically enhanced until he becomes the Ultimate Lifeform. The only time we see him really sensing stuff either is through an extended process where he needed to put his hands against a wall and determine heat signatures. The situation of him dodging the laser is a spur of the moment, so he doesn't have the means to pull something similar off in such a short timeframe. Some of the other instances where even other Pillar Men sense something usually involve something else like having their horn out. Kars is clearly just reacting to what he sees in the picture; it's just very clearly wrong on his behalf. Stroheim could maybe be a bit more acceptable given his mechanization, but his other eye doesn't seem to be affected by his upgrades. That would likely give it just normal human perception which is self-explanatory on why that is a problem. As for Joseph, it's directly explained in SBR that Hamon is a step to help you achieve a stand. However, Hermit Purple seems to be more latent and not something Joseph actually notices or can use until Dio was pierced by the Stand Arrow. I've seen people try to attribute Joseph's whole "Your next line is..." as proof he can use it, but that would likely just be an unconscious use of it at best. It would be similar to how Giorno had some of the life effects of Gold Experience as a kid, even without having it properly manifested. Part 2 Joseph seeing Stands would be an incredible stretch, especially since more would seemingly go against that. So yes, this is an inconsistency at the end of the day. It's one we have to accept because when we are trying to prove something is light, we have to prove it meets our IRL scientific standards. A visible to see for everyone ultraviolet light isn't consistent with how it works; it's just that simple.
Another Potential Counterargument:
I don't see how the light being weaponized debunks it being proper light, even with mass. Also, we've made lasers that can cut through metal IRL when sunlight itself can't do that. You can clearly make lasers more powerful.
Response to Another Potential Counterargument:
Light having mass literally debunks what light is supposed to be. Photons are massless; they do not carry mass. What's being suggested literally goes against accepting the laser as legitimate, especially if you're conceding to a potential idea of it having mass.
| “ | Light is composed of photons, so we could ask if the photon has mass. The answer is then definitely "no": the photon is a massless particle. According to theory it has energy and momentum but no mass, and this is confirmed by experiment to within strict limits. Even before it was known that light is composed of photons, it was known that light carries momentum and will exert pressure on a surface. This is not evidence that it has mass since momentum can exist without mass.Light is composed of photons, so we could ask if the photon has mass. The answer is then definitely "no": the photon is a massless particle. According to theory it has energy and momentum but no mass, and this is confirmed by experiment to within strict limits. Even before it was known that light is composed of photons, it was known that light carries momentum and will exert pressure on a surface. This is not evidence that it has mass since momentum can exist without mass. | „ |
| ~ Desy |
As for this second point, light doesn't get more powerful in this example. The reason it can cut through metal is because of the intensity behind those lasers. Sunlight isn't specifically designed by scientists to where it serves such a singular purpose.
| “ | I was also horrified that people were spending money to develop a perpetual motion machine, which is always a bad investment. It is a classic scam. You can not recombine the beams to get more total energy. However, you can recombine them in a way to get greater intensity in a smaller spot. | „ |
| ~ Individual studying in a Physics Major |
You can't really increase it in the way that Stroheim is saying.
Yet Another Potential Counterargument:
They never bring up plasma in JJBA. There is no reason that it should be that.
Response to Yet Another Potential Counterargument:
This is just failing to understand why I brought this up. I was never saying it was definitively plasma. I said it looked more like plasma than a genuine light beam. If what you're arguing as light looks more identifiably like or acts something else entirely, then of course people are going to point out that potential problem.
Yet Yet Another Potential Counterargument:
Why should Esidisi be concerned with the laser? He doesn't know what exactly is even being fired off at him either. He can sponge things due to his Immortality.
Response to Yet Yet Another Potential Counterargument:
Esidisi not knowing what's being fired off at him doesn't mean he wouldn't have a reason to avoid it. The Pillar Men have shown to deflect stuff that even they still know wouldn't do much to them like when Kars brought out his bone blade things to stop Stroheim's bullets later. This is literally a non-argument and trying to justify why an anti-feat can't be an anti-feat.
Feat #6: Silver Chariot Reacting to the Sun's Lasers
Feat In Question:
Response
I'm going to handle this one differently from the rest of them. I'm fine with Chariot blocking them as that's a pretty blatant feat, even without fully knowing of the stand's ability. However, we need to see if the lasers from this stand are actually legitimate. We're going to go over each of the feats that people use to call them genuine lasers. I C+P'd these from a VS Battles thread in order to make sure I cover my bases too.
Claim #1: The beams come from a literal miniature sun. Specifically, they are stated to come from the photosphere of it.
It coming from a miniature sun doesn't really mean much. I assume this is meant to fulfill the realistic source requirement, but it's hard to call what's literally a spiritual/mental projection of a person's will comparable to a legitimate sun just from appearance. If we want to be technical, the area would literally be inhospitable to any sort of light if it were to replicate the sun's effects fully close to the Earth.
Claim #2: They move in a straight line. They do not curve or anything akin to that.
Fair enough, this much is true. However, this isn't particularly strong evidence.
Claim #3: The beams don't explode; they burn and melt, just like an actual laser-beam. They're explicitly stated to be light and heat-based.
This is also fine as far as I can tell. They do burn and melt things with their power being derived from heat.
Claim #4: They bounce off and reflect off shiny surfaces like Chariot's blade; they also bounce off in a straight line and not in a curve.
I initially didn't agree with my original point I had listed for this one, but I've come to honestly agree with it again. Bouncing off of Chariot isn't really proof for or against the lasers. Chariot exists as a purely spiritual/mental projection from Polnareff. I'm aware that Stands share some aspects in common with what they're based on, but the entire point of light reflection is that it happens on physical surfaces. Hell, if we want to use VS Battles' standards here, they say, "The beam diffuses in a reasonably realistic way or reflects off a material that it can be expected to, such as a non-magical mirror." The only instance we have of it reflecting is off of a spiritual being, so I'm pretty sure it's easy to understand why I take issue with this.
Claim #5: They were stated to be lasers by Joseph, who most certainly knows what an actual laser-beam is. He he had to deal with them several times in his youth, after all.
Joseph says they are like lasers, not that they are lasers. Like in this sense just means they are similar to them. The whole point of the Laser/Light Standards is to prove something is real light, not that it's just similar to it.
Claim #6: Stated by multiple guides, these beams are light-rays. The official name for these beams even is called "Light-Ray Energy". Ergo, they're light-based lasers that are fired from a photosphere of a literal miniature star. Scans be found here: https://imgur.com/a/qdsJzXK
I won't say much on this since I'm still awaiting a translation. However, I had some people think I was dumb or oblivious because the translations were on the Imgur. The person who made the Imgur confirmed to a person I know that he updated the Imgur after this blog. I even had a friend say he remembered the text explicitly not being there too, so he can vouch for that. Please stop using that as cannon fodder to make a point of "Oh look how stupid he is lol" when you don't know the context of it.
Addressing General Refutes People Have Used
Topic #1: The Anime
Argument:
The Anime outright shows Silver Chariot coming out after Hanged Man starts moving. There are several thing from the Anime that would debunk a lot of what your saying here. It's even stated that Araki was directly involved in the Anime's production too. It should be giving us legitimate interpretations because of that if Araki directly approves of it.
Response:
I'm going to offer the counterargument for this later, but I want to do something fun here. Let's play Devil's Advocate and say Silver Chariot's feat is 100% MFTL. He comes out only afterward and does the slash when Hanged Man has barely moved to reach the coin. You get this one MFTL, buuuuuuuut.... Congratulations, you've literally invalidated literally every other FTL feat in the series (aside from Jotaro's right now I guess but this is if we ignore that it's a mistranslation to begin with).
Let's take a look at RHCP's feat:
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The statement here says that RHCP is directly moving at the speed of light, cool. Do you know what murders this statement though? It's specifically when he's traveling through the wires that this is the case. Even without that, the Anime has the exact same problems as the original. RHCP is blitzing the hell out of Josuke and Crazy Diamond here with little to no effort. I was being generous in that assuming it was just in general, but the Anime arguably weakens the case here more than helps it. At best, it adds absolutely no substance to supporting anyone else scaling, even Star Platinum. Let's dig into Joseph reacting to the Aja Stone now:
This looks like a good feat at first, but then you realize that Joseph and Caesar were already anticipating the light beam before it actually comes out. This completely neuters the feat as just being the byproduct of an aim dodge. Funnily enough, Esidisi getting tagged by the beam is the exact same here too. The Anime literally kills this feat if you want to use it, next. Okay, how about Kars' laser dodge?:
This is unironically worse than the Manga. At least in the Manga, you could see that he is most likely raising his hand to block the beam at his face. The Anime shows his hand is already up there instead, and it outright fucking blitzes Kars here too. That's how he even loses the Red Stone too, after all. Let it be known that if I conceded on the Anime being the version we use for extra context and the laser being fine, the thing that people are saying proves these feats literally invalidates any sort of feat at all. As in, the "feat" doesn't exist anymore. Maybe the Sun is the exemption of this here?:
The Sun is not as egregious as the other ones, but it's still horrible here. For one, some of the beams just randomly disappear in mid-air for no reason. Following that, the "melting" has things turn into magma just from immediate contact. This seems to act more like pure heat rays to me more than light. Using the Anime here makes the case worse on whether or not these are legitimate beams.
Also, since we're fine with using the Anime, let's add in the random occurrences of things that never happen in the manga. Dio and the Pillar Men can now magically teleport, Dio can slice clouds with SRSE even as a head, etc. If we want to include OVA stuff like some others have suggested, let's have that random feat where Tonpetty and Baron Zeppeli split a bunch of clouds too or DIO can glide and throw boats at Jotaro with him taking not too much damage from it.
This is exactly why I avoided using the Anime. It opens another can of worms that would unironically debunk all of the feats here minus probably Silver Chariot with Hanged Man. It also adds a lot other details/changes things that weren't in the original material. I was trying to be generous in not using the Anime as a source to debunk most of these feats, but I guess the JJBA fans really wanted to push for the Anime version of events despite that. You would only leave like one MFTL feat, and I don't think I would need to explain why that would be such a ridiculous outlier at this point.
Also, you may be curious what my thoughts would be to the Araki involvement thing. The example the respondent gave of "Araki going far" was him helping to determine stylistic aspects of the show. I honestly doubt Araki is directing the material himself. It's more likely just that he's helping to give them general ideas of how the overall show could work stylistically and other small tidbits about the characters and location. It doesn't necessarily mean Araki is literally one of their animators, painstakingly goes over each frame and sequence to see if something is accurate to the manga, etc. It's likely not that much different with the situation that Toriyama had with Dragon Ball Super.
Sub-Argument:
That would just mean that we are more delicate in what we select for the material. Hanged Man would be fine while some of the others you listed just wouldn't be used on in turn.
Response:
Yes, I'm responding to this because someone tried saying this in response. That is literally the definition of favoritism. You don't just pick and choose what's convenient for your case. That is incredibly stupid, and it sets a nonsensical standard just because the Anime doesn't always favor your case. We can use the Anime because it does things justice and because of Araki's involvement, or you can say it doesn't have much sway considering the amount of differences it offers in a lot of moments. Again, convenience isn't a factor with what we select.
Topic #2: Stuff Regarding Lasers
Argument:
You are being too harsh on the laser standards for no reason. They are called lasers and meet some of the other criteria too. Stroheim's laser is already called a UV ray too. They should be fine to be lasers for Stroheim and the Sun's feats. You have to keep in mind that Araki isn't a science wizard, so the contradictions are just author stupidity.
Response:
I really do not care if Araki is a science wizard or not, nor does any other indexing wiki that wants quality control. If the lasers/light don't meet the requirements for the standards, then they just don't. It's that simple. You can't dismiss something as author stupidity just because it doesn't align with your view either; that should be self-explanatory, or we could literally never argue that outliers exist (which literally nobody would ever settle for). Stroheim's thing meets like one or two criteria, but it has a lot of inconsistency afterward. The Sun only meets supporting requirements, not any of the main ones needed. I will apologize if I come off too annoyed here, but I won't hide the fact that I do dislike that some people complain about me giving JJBA lasers a hard time when they do the exact same thing, even for lasers that meet more requirements.
Topic #3: Bias Arguments
Argument:
You're biased against JoJo's Bizarre Adventure! We can't trust what you're saying here because of it!
Response:
Okay, let's just say that I agree with this for the sake of argumentation. What does being biased prove? That I'm suddenly wrong and that everything I say is wrong? I suggest you read this article on how the fallacy goes. You can't write someone off as wrong because they are biased. The person and the arguments are two completely different things. This is presuming that all biases are bad anyways. Let me give an extreme example to illustrate the point. Let's say a person has a bias toward freeing slaves because they argue it's morally wrong. Does that suddenly make that bias bad and their ideas of why we should free them bad too? 99.99% of people are likely saying no in their head. Obviously slavery and FTL JoJo aren't on the same degree, but you get the basic idea of why the notion is flawed. Not all biases are bad. This isn't remotely an argument, so I'm not sure why people act like it's one.
Conclusion
My conclusion here should be rather obvious. I don't agree with the FTL and above stuff for the verse. Three of these are indisputably wrong, namely scaling everyone to the FTL statement for SP, scaling everyone to RHCP, and Joseph reacting to a laser. Silver Chariot scaling off of Hanged Man, Kars' feat, and the Sun are mad sus too, but they're not as bad as the earlier three. I'll give a tl;dr for those of you who just want my super summarized thoughts.
- Hanged Man relies too much on prediction, Polnareff being unable to keep up otherwise, and having a possibly retconned description for HM.
- Star Platinum's FTL statement sounds massively like a mistranslation and is more then likely referring to the fact that Star Platinum can stop time and even if it wasn't, there's far too many anti feats for this off handed statement to be used.
- You objectively cannot scale RHCP to anyone.
- Joseph and Caesar dodge the explosion, not the laser.
- Kars' feat is weird and outlierish in comparison to those comparable to him.
- The Sun's "lasers" don't properly fit the laser criteria, even with our lax version.
- Using the anime creates far more anti feats then it does feats for FTL.
(My part added here) If you have any issues with this blog and want to list your long refutes, I'd suggest making a CRT or joining the discord to discuss it, as conversations over blogs aren't at all a great place to discuss topics like these that obviously will be talked about in circles.
I'll also not being replying to any off-site "refutes" to my blog unless I really feel like it, this blog is for this site, if a person has an issue with it I've provided two ways to discuss it with me.
