User:MrWarnerTheGreat/Sandbox

"To conclude this portion, the strength of the Emeralds vary based on the user's thoughts & heart, & there's nothing saying this doesn't apply to singular Emeralds either."

>Pretty irrelevant given that Sonic using the Chaos Emeralds' true power literally stalemated with Perfect Chaos who was using negative energy. After the fight, Sonic said that he had to erase Chaos' urge to fight to even stop the two from battling any further, proving that regardless of your emotional state or the power being used by the user, you don't jump entire tiers worth of power, you just get a Higher rating for that. Furthermore, we follow this rule for other characters too, so this isn't a concept exclusive to the Sonic series.

"Tails' statement at the end also implies that emotions aren't meant to utilize the Emeralds' power. Rather, it amps the Emeralds, allowing the user to achieve even greater power with them. Now maybe I'm alone in this, but having the Emeralds vary in strength alleviates the issue of outliers. This way, not every foe that fights Super Sonic ends up at Complex Universe level just for fighting Super Sonic, rather their strength will be judged on a case-by-case basis using THEIR feats, statements that have to do with THEIR strength, & consistent scaling (Ex. Perfect Chaos & Ultimate G-Merl use the Emeralds' negative energy, so they can likely scale to the Eclipse Cannon destroying Earth, as it uses the same power source. Metal Overlord was so powerful that Eggman believed the Emeralds might fail to beat him, so he should scale to previous Emerald feats Eggman is aware of, like the Eclipse Cannon again. Naturally only the Emeralds scale to Solaris, no one else). Even though Sonic uses the positive energy of the Emeralds, this doesn't mean he's always using their full power. If his mind & heart are set on defeating a foe, then the Emeralds are going to give him the strength to defeat said foe, not give him universe-busting power right off the bat."

>Like I said earlier, your entire argument hinges on the idea that a gap exists between negative and positive energy, when Sonic Adventures literally shows that both are equal in power output, thus the idea that negative energy is X tier lower than positive energy makes no sense from a narrative standpoint.

"So the subject of this Revision is that Sonic shouldn't scale to Chaos Emeralds... & I agree with this, but for different reasons, I'll get into that later. What I want to address here is the lack of any substantial proof that Emeralds are "vastly superior to the rest of the cast". All that was shown is a clip of Sonic being surprised that Tails found a Chaos Emerald. Being surprised at something doesn't automatically make it vastly superior to you, & saying the cast shouldn't scale just because the Emeralds have unlimited power doesn't make sense either."

>He wasn't just surprised because they found a Chaos Emerald, he and Tails directly state that its power is unlimited; What shocks them is the fact that they have access to it at that moment. Not only is this statement consistent in other games, but we know that "power" and "energy" directly correlates to AP in this context.

"That's like saying Character A fought Character B, who has infinite power, & Character A can't scale because he views Character B as having infinite power.'

>Except this is a false equivalence since a scenario like this never happens in Sonic the Hedgehog series.

"Chaos scaling: You make a good point, every fight involves striking Chaos' brain or freezing him. Granted, this could be due to the fact that Chaos is a liquid, & therefore resistant to physical attacks. Even so, it's likely intended as a weak point, & should be treated as such. Besides, Chaos likely wasn't accessing the Emeralds' full power either."

>Mania Sonic directly strikes Chaos 0 and hurts him with a spindash, so I doubt it's intangibility. Even if I am to concede to them needing to attack the only physical part of Chaos, that doesn't debunk the brain being far weaker, like a brain naturally would be.

"Wisp scaling: This on the other hand, no not at all. Obviously I'm not gonna scale Sonic to the giant black hole at the end of the game, that conked him out like nothing, & it's a big outlier. However, this black hole was also made by 100s, if not 1000s of Wisps, maybe even more, & a similar number of Wisps negated this black hole. Furthermore, Nega Wisps on their own can create much smaller black holes that Sonic can scale to, as color powers only serve to double Sonic's AP, so he'd scale to half the strength. Not saying Sonic HAS to scale to the Wisps, as this gets into outlier territory, I'm just saying the scaling is somewhat viable."

>It doesn't even matter due to our black hole standards completely killing scaling to said black hole. Furthermore, the black hole in Colors follows nothing like a regular black hole.

"Egg Dragoon scaling: I mean, he never said the Egg Dragoon harnessed ALL the energy. There's really no reason for Egg Dragoon to scale to Dark Gaia in the first place."

>That's fine irregardless, but absorbing a portion of a power source would still make you that power source' tier (Look to this profile for reference).

"Rings: I'm sorry, no offense, but this argument is honestly laughable. Characters survive attacks from enemies far stronger than them all the time. It's called outliers, not Ring shields. Even if it wasn't, Rings are never canonically shown or stated to protect against damage."

>They are directly shown in games like Sonic Generations that rings allow you to survive attacks as long as you have rings. There's no need for a statement when the evidence is literally on screen.

"As for Rings showing up in cutscenes, that's because these cutscenes take place in a level with rings in it. That's game mechanics, not all games bother to despawn collectibles during cutscenes (if someone collected Rings during a cutscene, that might be a different story). Also you used Sonic Boom as a justification, which obviously doesn't take place in the same world as the main games, so it's rules don't apply here."

>That's irrelevant when they're still present regardless. Also, them being in Sonic Boom but not the original continuity where the concept originated from would make no sense. If Rings were really intended to be a gameplay mechanic, they wouldn't be advertised in trailers or coded in for enemies.

"Even if they did, that was obviously just a joke, it's not meant to be taken seriously. Using a manual as justification is also blatantly wrong because manuals tell you how to PLAY the game. In other words, they're functioning off of game mechanics too. The manual isn't made to function within the world of Sonic, it's made to tell you, the player, in the real nonfictional world, how to interact with this digital experience."

>So the story the game explains is also a gameplay mechanic, huh? Because manuals also give you direct in-lore explanations to the story of the game in question. But this point is irrelevant because we don't use the American manuals anymore to justify this argument.

"As for rival battles using Rings, that's still game mechanics, y'know, cause it takes place during gameplay. Besides, if that were the case, wouldn't EVERY (or at least most) boss fight have a ring mechanic?"

>Just because rings exist in-verse doesn't mean all characters use them. Recall that we scale most characters to the main cast, so them fighting regularly still narratively makes sense. Also, Sega coding in rings for rival battles does not enhance or balance the gameplay any further than what it originally was.

"Plus, this does nothing to explain fights like the Egg Dragon or Ultimate Emerl, which don't involve Rings."

>Every point that was made here is null & void, & holds no substance. If you think I'm being nitpicky, look at this https://youtu.be/LqvFZCXPHrU. Sonic literally says "let me collect rings" in reference to maintaining his super form, confirming in canon that rings are tied to the super form's energy (they continue to bring up rings to maintain their form throughout the fight & in future games). The series knows what to do when they want to confirm lore about the Rings. If it mattered as much as you say it does, then there'd be literal statements to back it up, but you have none. And at that point, Emerl and Egg Dragon are just outliers since Chaos Emeralds are consistently treated as superior to the cast.

"I should also add that GBE isn't all there is to this feat. There's also heat & weight, neither of which Sonic or his friends can counter (this thing weighs 4 billion tonnes, & this site only rates Sonic Class 10). Being crushed is something that can be a serious threat even if someone has high durability, same as long falls, which are generally thought to be fatal even when characters have much higher showings."

>You're right, it is the heat of the star Infinite made, which we actually have calced at building level here on this wiki, so regardless, it's still a massive anti-feat. Also, we accept characters getting hurt or viewing large falls as dangerous as anti feats here, so that point is null.

"This is because it has to do with force as opposed to energy. My point is that there are a number of reasons why the sun feat shouldn't be considered an anti-feat, just an outlier for the sake of the plot, which happens pretty frequently in fiction."

>I mean we still scale Sonic and co above it, the point was to show that Sonic is riddled with narrative inconsistencies for his tier. Also, our wiki in particular attempts to stay true to how the narrative represents the characters, hence the tiering we have now.

"As for requiring a Phantom Ruby to counter it... I mean what else were they gonna do, punch it? It's still an illusion, it's not going to be affected so easily, & again, it's a sun, I don't think anyone could survive the heat, even if they were highly durable. Also, by your own logic, Rings would've kept Sonic from dying to something that would otherwise one-shot him, so any statements that Sonic downscales because he would die to a physical attack (not including black holes) contradicts your previous argument concerning Rings, further disproving what was easily the least viable argument of Revision 1."

>The rings argument doesn't matter because that implies the sun would instantly disappear upon making contact with the cast and not just suffocate them for an extended period of time, so regardless of how many rings they have, the star would eventually drain them and kill them instantly.

"Fragmenting a mountain: I've got no problem with that, though modern Sonic definitely has better feats than that 8-A calc."

If you're purely basing your arguments presented in that CRT alone, you should take a look at the Sonic the Hedgehog profile we have now, because we have the cast at 7-A.

"My alternative: Right now base form Sonic characters are rated Mountain level via the Little Planet feat... except there's no calc."

>A calculation isn't necessary for every potential feat, especially when said calc could possibly raise or lower the intended feat by the author. In this case, Little Planet was small enough that chains attached to mountains weren't tearing said mountains from the ground, thus the basis for our scaling.

"As for Modern Sonic, he no-sold a collision that shattered a massive base https://youtu.be/xb0pyrBkbcY?t=340 (watch till 5:55)"

>I doubt that would get any higher than our current rating.

"fought Iblis who induced a volcanic eruption https://youtu.be/dy20JQXLU7E?t=149,"

>Was the volcano active/close to eruption during the initial feat? Kinda hard to quantify said feat if we don't have that info.

"beat Erazor Djinn who drew in clouds https://youtu.be/ltXc6DcknXE?t=67"

>We don't scale the Arabian Nights to the regular universe in size, so this is unquantifiable

"There's also scaling to Eggman's machines, which should more or less scale to the tractor beams he used to tow planets across the universe in Sonic Colors https://youtu.be/XzmZQokUj5w?t=1598 (the planets are only continent-sized, but seem to have similar gravity to Earth, making them extremely dense & having high GBE). So Sonic should probably be City level to Multi-Continent level depending on what gets accepted."

>Well we accept mountain level, but this feat wouldn't be usable due to our Kinetic Energy standards. Furthermore, I don't know why we'd scale to robots specifically designed for the task to move planets large distances.

"Personally I rate PotS as Complex Universe level since the Eggmen claimed they would make the universe their plaything, & were superior to both sets of Emeralds, which the Eggmen planned on using to make their own world in Sonic Rush (more on that next)."

>Ironic how you complain about the statement we used for the PotS being too vague, but then use a statement equally as vague and interpretable. I'd actually say that this specific scenario is referring to reality warping due to the Chaos Emeralds consistent ability to warp space and time.

"What isn't a side effect is the outright statement that both sets of Emeralds could destroy the world by calling out to each other https://youtu.be/Iq01_F0Ch38?t=75. However, this is done when the Emerald sets are in close proximity, so that amp from earlier is likely still in play."

>"World" in context could very easily refer to the planet, which would make sense given how consistent the Emeralds are treated as a planetary threat. But if you mean the universe(s), that would literally refer to the Chaos and Sol Emeralds not being able to coexist together and causing their universes to merge and get erased.

"Furthermore, Eggman & Nega planned on using both sets of Emeralds to create their own world "beyond this dimension" (same vid, 3:10), implying that they were going to create their own universe similar in size to Sonic's & Blaze's (as mentioned in the PotS section, this is likely utilizing the combined strength of both sets of Emeralds, & so wouldn't scale to either set on its own)."

>That does not imply that their world would be of relative size to the primary universe, and I don't know why you made such a rash assumption. It's easily just as likely a world (Planet) or pocket dimension outside of either world.

"It's also worth noting that, because Sonic had the Emeralds, he was able to stop them from destroying the universe (same vid, 2:09 to 2:40)."

>Yes, because the entire plot is that the Sol Emeralds can't be outside their universe without merging it and causing both worlds to destroy themselves due to a rift in space-time that expands slowly overtime and grows bigger. This is not an acceptable feat under our standards due to the timeframe.

"Plus, he stops blocking after the armor is broken, which should imply that his body is less durable than his armor."

>Uhhh, on the contrary, that would actually suggest that Solaris' armor is <<< The core which makes no sense since the core is a metaphysical consciousness which realistically wouldn't have a durability.

"Even then, Super Silver is able to redirect Solaris' attacks, which should add to the reasons why they scale. Also I think Invulnerability is a NLF, but that's an argument for another day."

>That's attack reflection + invulnerability allowing his body to physically reflect the attacks back. Also, don't see how invulnerability is NLF when it's only up to a Low 2-B scale and it doesn't resist higher level attacks (I.e conceptual nuke).

Now for the anti-feats

"Chaos scaling: Nothing much to add here, but I will say I never liked the "destroy the world" statement as, if he did, then there wouldn't be a world to live on in the present. This either means "world" refers to the Echidna civilization, or he "attempted" to destroy the world, but was stopped when Tikal sealed him away. Also we don't know how long it'd take him."

>Or a surface wipe which would be High 6-A here. That would technically leave the planet in tact.

"ARK scaling: The Eclipse Cannon was made to destroy the planet using all 7 Chaos Emeralds. That doesn't mean it's the peak of the Emeralds' strength, it just means it's the peak of the ARK's strength, & something the Emeralds are capable of doing. Furthermore, the Eclipse Cannon was made for vengeance, negative purposes, & Eggman was going to use it for similarly bad things. In other words, this is just another feat for negative energy, & doesn't really affect Super Sonic."

Hard to believe it's the Emeralds at their casual/lowest level when it is very consistent that planetary is their peak. Just a few examples:

Black Doom uses chaos control here to warp the planet to the surface of Earth. Mind you, Black Doom literally amplified the Chaos Emeralds to do this feat.

Gerald Robotnik says that all seven Chaos Emeralds could destroy the planet.

Six Chaos Emeralds blew up a portion of the moon which shocked Sonic and co.

Eggman was surprised by all seven Chaos Emeralds being able to potentially destroy the planet.

And of course, there's the feats listed in my second part of the CRT.

"However, Dark Gaia is also one of the strongest things Eggman has ever had in his arsenal, describing it as having limitless energy https://youtu.be/UXK7HEbg1dg?t=2512, & seemingly valuing his power over the Emeralds (seeing as he yeets the Emeralds right after awakening Dark Gaia, though this could be PIS of a sort), potentially putting him on a similar or greater level than the Final Egg Blaster & Power of the Stars."

>Too bad that Dark Gaia is narratively only planet level, because he literally has to enter a coma to envelope and consume the entire planet. It would make no sense for him to be above planetary.

"There's also the fact that Dark Gaia gains power from negative energy, which would naturally conflict with Sonic's positive energy. After all, Super Sonic has never tired out in battle before. Plus, if Eggman yeeting the Emeralds is PIS, who's to say Sonic getting tired isn't as well?"

>I mean with what the narrative has consistently portrayed up to this point, Sonic was drained because he's consistently struggling with tier 5 threats, so that's definitely not PIS. Also, Eggman yeeting the Emeralds is moreso likely due to him not realizing the potential consequences or even the factor of restoring the Chaos Emeralds.

"The Space Colony ARK was going to destroy Earth using the Emeralds' negative energy: Planet level (Sonic Adventure 2) [Gerald also claims that the Emeralds could destroy the whole planet in Sonic Battle, adding further consistency]"

>Debunked this. Negative and positive energy are relative which is apparent by the very scene you tried to justify them being different in power. At best, Super forms get a Higher rating with more positive emotions since the power difference isn't notable enough.

"The Sol Emeralds cause Blaze's dimension to enter Sonic's: Complex Universe level (Sonic Rush) [though it's possible that the dimension was moving of its own volition, not a lot of context is given]"

>Which is overtime and moving a universe isn't even a quantifiable feat on this wiki.

"Chaos & Sol Emeralds destroy the universe: Complex Universe level (Sonic Rush) [the Emeralds were likely amping each other due to their close proximity, so this only scales to their combined power]"

>Via an overtime rift in the space-time continuum

"Chaos & Sol Emeralds create a universe: Complex Universe level (Sonic Rush) [again, uses their combined strength]"

>Awful assumption to assume that Eggman and Nega were planning to make Eggman Land a universal place when their goals are consistently on a planetary scale.

"Chaos Emeralds stabilize the universe: Complex Universe level (Sonic Rush) [this was done through their own power, as the Sol Emeralds were drained, & the Egg Salamander was wielding their power]"

>Literally just space-time manipulation due to the circumstances of the merge.

"Super forms break Solaris' shells & redirect his attacks: Complex Universe level (Sonic 06)"

>His shell doesn't scale to anything. And it being stronger than the core is literally irrelevant when it's Solaris' consciousness.