Forum - Pokemon Revisions

There has not been an actual genuine Pokemon Revision thread since August 4th, 2021. That's how long it's been since an actual thread has been made, jesus, how far we've come. So regardless the point of this thread is to revise things since I will at some point be returning to Pokemon to update the pages and I'd rather not just give it a bunch of new tiers, stats and stuff without at least a thread being made to see if everything looks good (I will be attempting to do this for other future revision threads too where I see others still active support the verse too). Due to this, I can't guarantee many of the pages will be updated the way I envision them just cause this revision thread gets passed, this is just to know in advance what to expect.

The purpose of this thread is to discuss what continuities for what can be scaled across each other.

All of the games should pretty much be usable asides from the Pokemon TCG game on Gameboy.

PMD may have been a point of contention, however, in interviews it is effectively treated as having many similarities it's just in a different timeline. Which is already a thing with most Pokemon games, so feats and abilities from there are perfectly usable.

Pokemon Origins can be used though I wouldn't exactly put it directly in game continuity, moreso it's own continuity that other continuities can borrow from. Mainly the games so far seem to be the best bet to borrow from it.

Addendum: I forgot about Pokemon Evolutions & Generations, they're effectively the same thing, their own continuity but other continuities can grab from it.

The primary Pokemon anime and the movies. Pokemon Horizons would also be included for reference. Same with Pokemon Chronicles. Some example differences from the game can be found here. A primary example can be when Brock's Onix got affected by rain that allowed Pikachu's thunderbolt to work when you cannot replicate that in the games.

Pokemon I Choose You is a separate universe.

The mangas would be their own continuities, Pokémon: The Electric Tale of Pikachu and Pokemon Adventures aren't the same as an example. Though obviously if there's direct connections then there will be direct connections.

This is it's own continuity as it has a completely different type system. This would also include the Trading Card Game on GBC.

So far the tiering for the verse is pretty bad.

Their early game is 8-A solely from the move Earth Power and this calculation which is pixel scaling and has all kinds of issues looking at it. Very obviously needs to get removed.

Their High 6-A reasoning is based off scaling to Groudon who is noted to have raised the continents, though this is further elaborated on in more modern Pokedex entries that it used magma to do so and by evaporating the water, if you want to argue the Pokedex entires contradict each other, we have Team Rainbow Rocket, a segment based off what if timelines where the villains won, Maxie directly notes that he will use Groudon to do this exact thing of shrinking the oceans to raise the lands. So this would be through abilities and not AP.

The other reason was scaling to Yvetal who powers the Ultimate Weapon, but we don't use X powering Y as feats, especially since the Ultimate Weapon was also powered by millions of pokemons life energy.

So these are pretty axed and don't work, what do we get for new tiers?

Early Game
So what new tier would early game get? 9-B We have this where cosmog can cause explosions like this that trainers can take.

Magikarp is considered a worthless Pokemon and it has these feats:
https://youtube.com/shorts/X-rezIZXqq0?si=3_cIByG3zHF2ilvH

Craters the ground with its splash here

https://youtu.be/AneiChRbgSM?t=135&si=vn_vC5ZTlLLw9Edx

Eventually broke a tree in half here

https://youtu.be/AneiChRbgSM?t=267&si=3EpAUZXNoEyl32D0

Broke a nice chunk of a boulder overtime here

https://youtu.be/AneiChRbgSM?t=389&si=OWGdPCha_viHfzG-

And Broken a frozen tree in half over time here

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/-IXvr6m7DQE

Pokemon in Legends Arcedus can break apart large boulders overtime, including Magikarp.

9-B pretty simple.

Mid Game
Mid game is honestly harder to pin-point since there's no real definitive way to define a "mid-game" for Pokemon games, the basic generalization I have in mind is middle gyms and dealing with the evil teams bullshit (minus the games where the evil team reaches into the end game). This page also had an overall generalization of what I worked with an old user on when doing it over 2 years ago. Though this is more specific to Scarlet and Violet's path. I'd say for the most part decide for yourself what you best want for an early, middle, and late game to make things easier there. If there's conflicting issues or such we can discuss them in future threads.

In cases like that I'd say probably 8-C works since Rhyhorn is typically a mid game to late game Pokemon and it's a first stage evolution. Pokemon directly can take its tackle too or else there would only be rhyhorns in certain areas.

End Game
The new tier for End Game was honestly hard to find but due to PMD being usable, Rayquaza destroys a meteor that was of this size that was going to lifewipe everyone. If the life wipe thread goes through this gets 6-B.

Another thing to add on, as this page shows, Trainers and trainer pokemon need higher with emotional empowerment as their bonds literally amplify them.

FTL reasonings need to go, solar beam is absorbing light and then shooting out a blast, it is not a light speed attack but an energy blast that absorbs light energy. Also it's 100% accuracy. Dazzling Gleam is a flash of light that is also 100% accuracy. Flash which is a literal flash of light is 100% accuracy. So it's clear light speed attacks are generally unmissable unless their accuracy drop or a character ups their speed to make it harder to tag them. If you want further examples of how they're clearly not portrayed as this fast, Dragonite is pretty consistently stated in its pokedex as an impressive speed feat for it to circle the globe in 16 hours. And moves like fly are literally using their travel speed to attack.

Now for speed tierings, sonic boom is a 90 accuracy move naturally so you can take it as they can dodge speed of sound attacks, screech is 85 accuracy metal sound is 85 accuracy. While attacks like growl are 100 accuracy supersonic is also 55% accuracy, so I'd say Supersonic speed for early game and mid game are fine, end game Pokemon should be Massively Hypersonic if they have reason to be comparable to legendaries like Raikou who is noted to embody lightning speed.

So one of the main issues was the fact that end game trainers that are champion level can fight against Legendaries but also can fight against random end area wild Pokemon. For example, Cereluean Cave is filled with Pokemon like Ditto but that wouldn't make sense at all to say Cereluean Cave Ditto is relative to Mewtwo. So instead I think it's that trainer mons have two separate tiers: One when they're not in a serious fight so against a wild Pokemon, where they're at the standard tier. There's also implications that trainer mons can easily take on hoards of wild Pokemon to further showcase they shouldn't be treated as relative. Regardless the bonds with a trainers Pokemon greatly amplifies their strength, we see this even in stuff like Pokemon Origins which adapts the Mewtwo fight where Red is actually harming Mewtwo and then through Red and Charizard's bond they Mega Evolve to take down Mewtwo. So Bonds are shown to be something applicable when they're taking on more serious threats. Thus trainer mons and trainers should get a X tier normally, X tier with bonds.

I know a potential counterargument is you can catch a random Pokemon and they can normally be around the same tier as the rest of your team but it's clear the narrative isn't thinking of this. For example, you COULD catch and make an entire team of wild mons at Victory Road to take down the entire Pokemon League in Pokemon Red/Blue/Green/Fire Red/Leaf Green and Oak will still always tell Blue he lost because of your bond with your Pokemon. So it's clear that's not really an in-universe narrative thing being acknowledged.

So the tiers would work as follows:

• Early Game: At least 9-B. Far Higher with Bonds
• Mid Game: 8-C, likely Far Higher. Far Higher with Bonds
• End Game: At least 8-C, likely Far Higher. 6-B with Bonds

Initially we did not allow Wild Pokemon pages anymore, but this has since been removed though with one requirement. Wild Pokemon pages need to be "X Line", for example, Ralts has a chance of evolving into a Gardevoir or a Gallade, so it would be called "Ralts Line" to cover all the evolution as just calling it Gardevoir wouldn't make sense due to the existence of Gallade. Same thing with Eevee, which has 9 different evolutions it can be. It would just be called "Eevee Line" special Pokemon should not be included into these lines usually. Like Ash's Pikachu as an example shouldn't be apart of the Pichu Anime line since it's noted to be a special Pikachu.

This way we can easily make Pokemon pages without issues. Also other continuities in the future will be separate tabbers, we'll just start with the games for now as it's the most important for us right now.

Also the pages should all follow this physiology.

Scaling should generally have multiple things to them:

1. Base Stats
While people will attribute base stats to gameplay mechanics, base stats are in actuality decently consistent with portrayal with some outliers. Legendries are almost always not surpassed in their stats. I would pay attention to things like how one's overall base stats goes against another too.

2. Area of wild Pokemon
Normally you can find beginning evolution wild Pokemon in some late game areas, the general reconciliation for this is normally their evolutions are in the areas with them so they would be protected similar in the animal kingdom to child animals still being in dangerous areas due to their parents being around. If you think that's conjecture, there are Pokedex entries such as Butterfree's where it directly notes its protecting the Caterpies from Pidgeys attacking it.

3. Pokedex Entries
Pokedex entries are normally an important thing to look at since they give a gauge at a Pokemon's lore. They can also give off some feats the Pokemon may have that you can give them a tier for.

4. Never scale to trainers
Wild Pokemon should never have scaling from Trainers and their Pokemons since trainers Pokemons strength comes from taking down wild mons and the bonds with their Pokemon, so fighting a random wild mon is not going to give them the same level of seriousness of bond as fighting a gym leader, league champion, or evil team leader. (Trainers will likely be getting an "X Tier Normally, X Tier With Bonds" too)

These are the following ways to deal with wild mon scaling, it'll likely be discussed more in-depth in future discussions.

Currently the agreed upon tiering for Wild Mons are as follows:

• Early Game: 9-B
• Mid Game: 8-C
• End Game: At least 8-C

Dynamax Mons have a pretty consistent amount of statements of being threats to skyscrapers.

Lapras' hype statement in Gigantamax is that it can smash icebergs https://youtu.be/grMwhCTalOc?t=60

Butterfree can blow away a ten ton truck https://youtu.be/grMwhCTalOc?t=192

Pikachu's electricity is noted to be equivalent to a lightning strike in gigantamax https://youtu.be/grMwhCTalOc?t=257

https://youtu.be/grMwhCTalOc?t=400&si=UlQ6ZkIrTgutW3CF

Corviknight can blow winds more powerful than any hurricanes

https://youtu.be/grMwhCTalOc?t=1254

Sandaconda can pulverize a skyscrpaer with its sand

https://youtu.be/grMwhCTalOc?t=562&si=xgJdWlSmhgpje379

Venasaur is noted that it could topple a ten story building with its vines.

So Dynamax mons will be around 8-A and this will effectively hard lock wild mons from getting anything higher.