Forum - Undertale Revisions: A Massive Verse Conspiracy

Introduction

There's a couple of things that need to be done with this series as it's some of the oldest pages on the wiki, going back to when I wasn't the head bureaucrat and they've barely been updated since, which shows why a lot of their standards look outdated.

Since this thread was made regarding Asriel, I feel like this is the perfect time to just get the overall series revisions out of the way.

Fair warning if you don't want to get spoiled for things with this series and somehow have made it all this time without any spoilers I wouldn't read this thread.

Part One: Verse Page Split

Currently Deltarune and Undertale are on the same verse page, which doesn't really make sense. Yes Deltarune is effectively an AU of Undertale, but as far as we understand, it is its own series that isn't considered a sequel or prequel to Undertale as stated by Toby himself.

1. "Is this a sequel? What's going on?? I'm scared..." Please don't worry too much about that. Actually, I'm worried if people worry too much about "what it is," they might not be able to properly enjoy it... (laugh) I will say that basically, what you're seeing here is not the world of UNDERTALE. UNDERTALE's world and ending are the same as however you left them. If everyone was happy in your ending, the people in the UNDERTALE world will still be happy. So, please don't worry about those characters, and that world. It will remain untouched. To rephrase that, DELTARUNE's world is a different one. With different characters, that have lived different lives. A whole new story will happen... I don't know what you call this kind of game. It's just a game you can play after you complete UNDERTALE, if you want to. That's all. —Toby's Detlarune Q&A

So according to him, the world and characters from Undertale are largely untouched and Deltarune's world is a different one with different characters. This is even shown with scenes in Deltarune showing Monster Physiology is not the same as Monster Physiology in Undertale, regardless they should be two separate verse pages with a tabber that looks something like this:

Part Two: How Scaling in Undertale is Handled

The current way Undertale scaling is handled is part of the very archaic style of the series. For reference, a lot of monster pages are listed like this "At least Peak Human level, possibly Higher (Can harm The Human, whose comparable to Chara who survived a fall from the top of the mountain)".

So asides from the fact that we do not use falling feats for durability as fiction is very inconsistent with that, thus we list it under Impact Resistance. The feat is also based on an incorrect assumption, we assume The Human is comparable to Chara for no real reason when both fell from the top of the mountain and in the Human's case, the flower bed broke their fall.

On top of this, arguing "Can harm The Human" for physical AP is quite dubious. A thing outright stated in the Monster Librarby is humans with their physical forms are far stronger then monsters, now I need to correct something here; this does not mean Frisk is stronger then the entire monster cast, far from it, we see scenes that showcase otherwise. Undyne is consistently shown to be a threat physically stronger then Frisk; Asgore while basically ultimately depressed and not realistically wanting to fight himself only takes chip damage from Frisk, and so many more cases. The reason I say the physical AP wording is dubious is because they never physically fight Frisk, they always attack their SOUL.

Even when Undyne is chasing the human, if a spear hits them, it sends them into SOUL combat where they need to dodge a dozen spears flying at them.

This means their attacks are naturally targeting the SOUL which would be Non-Standard Damage and Frisk taking hits would be Non-Standard Defenses much the same as other series like Touhou Project is treated here.

This is all to say a monsters AP reasoning should not come from harming Frisk, that would be listed under their "Can ignore conventional durability".

Now you may be asking though, why did I say Frisk should not be physically stronger then the mosnters when the library statement is pretty blatant? It's because strength in this case is not referring to physical strength, allow me to explain. In Alphys lab notes in the true lab they note how they found the blueprints to learn about what allows the humans the strength to persist after death, calling the power "Determination". In this case, strength for a human is in reference to the fact that their bodies can handle Determination, monsters bodies cannot handle determination, its why Undyne despite how much determination she has, starts melting and fades away. This is due to monsters barely actually having physical forms due to their bodies being mostly made of magic.

Thus this isn't really an AP thing but stronger in terms of sheer willpower, which is pretty obviously the case as no monsters determination can ever oppose Frisk's, not even Asriel is able to oppose Frisk's determination and needs to wrestle control over the timeline against him despite absorbing literally every monster's SOUL in the underground along with the six human SOULs.

This is effectively to say, monsters should tiered base off the feats they've shown. Now one may ask if this means check STATS should be used? Check stats are still quite dubious for a couple of reasons:

• Monsters like Glyde give off the implication that monsters are the ones listing their statistics.
• Mad Dummy has a defense stat listed of -40 but notes because they're a ghost physical attacks will fail. One could say the -40 comes from the fact that the dummy's body is that weak, however, the regular Dummy's check stats just has their DEF as 0, there's really no reason why the Mad Dummy should have far lower DEF stats especially during a pacifist route.
• Characters like Napstablook have a defense stat listed but you actually aren't lowering his HP he was just lowering it for you to be nice.
• Toriel's stats are listed at 80 ATK and 80 DEF, the same as Asgore's stats. Yet in one of the endings Unydne with her strength as stated by Sans literally threw Toriel out of the castle. Despite Undyne's stats being 7 ATK and 0 DEF. This would also imply characters like Papyrus are stronger then her as he has an 8 ATK and 2 DEF, and while she does admit Papyrus is pretty tough, it's never really implied to be that Papyrus is stronger then Undyne. Royal Guard members are also shown to have higher stats then her through this logic.
• Undyne the Undying has stats of 99 ATK and 99 DEF yet due to Mettaton's Invulnerable Body, they have a defense stat of 999.

Basically this is to show Check Stats aren't remotely consistent and are just for flavor text. If you want some examples too, Genocide and Pacifist check stats differ, which aren't purely just due to the killing intent of the human rising, as Papyrus' defense raises during genocide route and even then, Frisk at a level 3 killing intent one-shots Toriel yet a Frisk at level 13 can still only chip damage Asgore.

It should also be noted, the argument that Toriel sent Asgore flying with her fire, has an issue it was an off guard hit which it has been shown off-guard/betrayal kills can one-shot monsters as they lowered their guard.

This is all to say monsters should be tiered off of their own feats, if they've shown none then a simple 10-B tier can work for them.

Part Three: The God Tiers

Now to effectively talk about the God Tiers as they need complete re-works.

Chara
This is currently Chara's reasoning for 2-A: "Multiverse level (Buster) (Could destroy the world of Undertale, with Chara affecting more than one timeline as Sans himself states "you'll keep consuming timelines", along with this, there can also be more than one file deleted after Chara destroys the world. The world of UT consists of an uncountable amount of timelines that were all made by Flowey resetting to the point that he knew every set of dialogue, numbers, etcetera. Should be superior to Asriel Dreemurr)"

This looks fine on paper but has several issues, for one, the world of Undertale is actually never defined as the entirety of the multiverse at any point in the game. Asriel literally notes he doesn't care about destroying this world anymore and then proceeds to note that after he defeats Frisk and gains total control over the timeline. The statement clearly likens the world to the timeline. Sans' "you'll keep consuming timelines" statement is also referring to the fact that everytime you finish a route you restart and do another route, so technically yes you are "consuming timelines" but in the way one finishes routes in a video game, which is one by one. Also while I still agree with Chara being superior to Asriel, being superior to Asriel has no bearing or relevance on their stats, especially since Asriel is losing his tier 2 key. Oh also for the part that says "along with this, there can also be more than one file deleted after Chara destroys the world", I actually do not know if that has any proof of being alternate game files or such, I don't even know what they do for the game honestly. Initially from what Toby said, he wanted to make it where Chara would delete the game Undertale in its entirety so I think that's a leftover from that, which has nothing to do with number of timelines. The amount of timelines UT consists of also is irrelevant as there's no point where Chara destroys the totality of that. There could genuinely be argument that a reset in UT doesn't leave a timeline behind but makes it disappear or merge with the new one too, as characters will have weird deja vus from past resets on scenes you've done. So yeah Chara should just be changed to At least 2-C or flat out 2-C.

Part Three: Fixing Up/Removing Some Abilities

Removals
"Impossible Permutation (The Human through their determination re-fuses to accept any possibility where Asriel wins, not resulting in any timeline where Asriel succeeds)" This was under the premise that Asriel had control over the entire multiverse but as a recent thread that got accepted showed, he was trying to wrestle control over the timeline. Thus this ability is no longer accurate.

"Regeneration Negation (Up to "Low-Godly to Mid-Godly"; Genocide run human was capable of permanently killing Undyne the Undying)" Undyne is in the process of repeatedly dying and undying so dealing enough damage to her to where she just dies wouldn't be negating regeneration.

"Possible Acausality Negation (Causality Immunity; Annoying Dog was seemingly affected by the true reset itself too as he repeated the process of re-absorbing the legendary artifact)" Honestly more I think about this there's no real basis for this. The Annoying Dog could fully well just be repeating the process just to repet it with how much of a troll it and there's not any actual basis for this argument out of an event repeating, so this can be removed. Also as seen with the Annoying Dog section, acausality doesn't even have a valid reason behind it.

"**Physical Attacks (All monsters bodies are attuned to their SOUL thus only attacks that can affect their SOUL can affect them^[1])" This should straight up just be removed, while the reasoning makes sense in concept, the game clearly does not follow or allude to this. Napstablook outright states you can't kill a ghost as they're incorporeal, Mad Dummy's check stat outright says because they're a ghost physical attacks will fail and its specifically noted with Mettaton that their metal body makes them invulnerable to physical attacks. So its pretty much consistently showcased that Monsters being attached to their SOULs actually makes it where their attacks are stuck to physicality.

"Soul Manipulation & Essence Manipulation ( All monsters and humans can perform attacks that can damage the SOUL)," This should be removed for humans as Frisk has not showcased any actual non-standard interactions and anytime they interact with incorporeal characters they literally cannot interact with them. This is even shown with Frisk being unable to eat a ghost sandwich as they phase right through the sandwich.

"Singular Existence (Once reaching the absolute Chara becomes a multiversal entity that destroys the entire cosmology, meaning there is only one absolute state Chara in existence)" As noted in the Chara downgrade section, they are not actually a multiversal entity that destroys the entire cosmology so this should be removed.

"Willpower Manipulation (Can mess with ones determination, made the player lose all their DT. To the point where they couldn’t even close out the game)," This is incorrect, they absorbed the player's DT hence why they couldn't close out of the game, they haven't been shown ever to be able to manipulate one's determination.

"Empathic Manipulation (As Chara embodies LOVE they can manipulate ones killing intent)," Embodying something doesn't automatically give you a manipulation over it.

"Reality Separation (Reality Seperation; Exists outside of Undertale reality as a non-existent being)" I'm gonna be honest, I have no fucking clue where this comes from. I guess the assumption is because you don't enter a save file when you re-open the game and it's just this but that's highly speculative.

"Personal Nonexistence (Ayin Physiology; Gaster doesn't exist to the scale below even beings like Chara or Goner Kid. The mere act of acknowledging his existence or saying his name causes one to be erased or all of reality to reset. Even for the brief moments he can enter reality merely acknowledging him causes him to be completely erased)" Honestly after thinking about it fully, Gaster shouldn't even have Personal Nonexistence, he's word for word noted to be scattered across space-time. If Deltarune has something new to add with it then that can be added there.

"Paradox Existence (Concept and Non-Concept; Exists and doesn't exist at the same time, no longer bound by any concepts as he's completely outside of everything)" This can be removed entirely as the basis has no actual proof.

"4th Wall Awareness (Aware that he's in a game)" This is for Flowey, I actually went to check if that's true acknowledgement of him being in a game, the closest is a vague line that was Toby basically cheekly calling out people that watch Genocide routes on youtube rather then do it themselves. Most of his other "4th wall breaks" is him acknowledging the in-universe ability of determination and to reset, not really being aware that he's a video game character. So I suggest to just remove it for now unless someone has a scene of him acknowledging he's a character in a video game.

Changes
"Soul Manipulation & Essence Manipulation (All monster attacks in Undertale are to the SOUL)" Should instead be Non-Standard Damage and Non-Standard Interaction (Metaphysical Interaction), as they are damaging, not manipulating anything.

"Power Nullification (Passive; Anyone with higher determination then another can override their powers. The difference in DT allows them to nullify more abilities, though the standard is negating all time based abilities)" This needs to be re-written to specify that it nullifies time-based abilities that work around one's willpower/determination. Standard time users that just stop time this wouldn't nullify them. With this in mind too, it should honestly be Limited Power Nullification.

"Regeneration (High-Godly through Possession; After destroying the world, their own body is taken with it as they no longer have a body when requesting for The Anomaly to give them their SOUL, through taking the Anomaly's SOUL they are not only able to recreate the world, but also possess The Human's body. It is possible also that Chara is able to regenerate without possessing one's SOUL and merely did this in order to gain The Anomaly's SOUL, but this is highly speculative)" I have no clue why this is regeneration, this is just Resurrection.

"Conceptual Absorption (Stole all of The Anomaly's determination)" Due to the conceptual vs abstract standards, this would be abstract absorption, not conceptual. Minor change but still important in regards to standards.

"Data Manipulation, Information Manipulation, & Conceptual Manipulation (Messed with the game files, and permanently locked The Anomaly from a true pacifist ending. Destroyed the totality of Undertale)" First part is fine, though I think Conceptual Manipulation should be removed. Second part needs to be removed entirely as the totality of Undertale is not destroyed from this.

"Personal Nonexistence (Ayin Physiology; Talks to The Anomaly in a non-existent state after the multiverse conceptually ends)" As noted before, they did not end the multiverse, nor conceptually, they can keep personal nonexistence but they would not fall under the Ayin Physiology reasoning, it would just be that they have no body in the blank void.

"Erasure & Nothingness Manipulation (Conceptual Erasure & Existence Erasure; Even acknowledging Gaster's existence or merely saying his name will cause you to be erased completely from existence)" Should just be Battlefield Removal as nothing actually states the follower was erased.

"Absorption (Absorbed the six human souls, Monsters and humans can absorb souls as long as the person isn’t the same species as them)" Second part should be removed, Alphys directly refers to Flowey as one that's neither a monster nor a human which is why he can absorb both sides souls.

"Absorption & Time Manipulation (Absorbs the entire underground, the hyper goner attack was absorbing the entire timeline)" As agreed upon in the Asriel thread, he did not absorb the entire timeline, so it was just a massive Vaccum attack.

Part Four: Annoying Dog

This page is definitely one of the more updated ones as it removed a lot of the older arguments that made Annoying Dog seem undeniably god-like. Though there are still a couple of issues, let's delve into all of the issues with this:

Multiversal with Creation (Created the game of Undertale on accident and Deltarune, the world of UT consists of an uncountable amount of timelines that were all made by Flowey resetting to the point that he knew every set of dialogue, numbers, etcetera) Creating the game of Undertale and Deltarune is fine but the timeline amount was specifically from Flowey resetting repeatedly, not from the Annoying Dog creating those timelines, so it would instead be Multi-Universal with Creation.

"Intelligence: Cosmic Intelligence (Should have all knowledge of Undertale and Deltarune as he coded everything within the game)" It's outright noted he coded the game by complete accident so this should be removed.

"Conceptual Manipulation (Created the concepts of Undertale including Determination which exists even after everything is destroyed)" I can technically get what this is trying to say but this is ultimately just something that should go into the coded Undertale section which already falls under Information Manipulation.

"Immortality (Likely Ageless; Though not confirmed, the Annoying Dog seems to be able to live for as long as it wants across both Undertale and Deltarune. Life and Death Immunity; Predates the concept of death)" "Acausality (Causality Immunity; Created the game of Undertale on accident and created Deltarune, viewing both as a mere piece of coding where he can easily remove and not be bound by)" "Conceptual Manipulation (He predates all concepts and thus cannot be affected by them), Space-Time Manipulation (3+1-D; Predates the concepts of space-time)" "Magic (Predates the concepts of magic), Physical Attacks (Predates the concept of stats and actions which are used to attack and defend)" "Law Manipulation (Predates the laws of Undertale making you unable to even fight him, forgot to code being able to fight him)" Now for reference I know EXACTLY where this predates argument comes from, it was from years ago, nearly a decade by this point, that since the Annoying Dog created the reality, they pre-date all the concepts with that reality. The issue is that the game outright acknowledges he coded it into existence, through using a text to speech function, meaning there was already a reality. Plus the Anomaly is not an entity from Undertale but merely an observer. So anything using predates should get removed. The only thing that can remain is that he forgot to code his fight in so you can't fight him cause of that, which would again fall into Information Manipulation. "Memory Manipulation, Reality Warping, & Time Manipulation (1-T; Unaffected by standard resets)" This is actually never proven in the game so that should be removed. I think you can regular reset too before losing the legendary artifact and the same scene will replay.

The creation's abilities section is dubious too as he's not a god-like entity that created them from nothing but coded them into existence so I think all of those abilities need to get axed too, though I am willing to hear reasons why it should stay.

Conclusion

This took me about 2 hours to make so I hope it explains itself well.