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Creation vs Destruction: Difference between revisions

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{|class=width="100%" style="border:4px solid #856363; border-radius:7.5px; clear:both; font-size:75%; font-family:verdana;" align="center""
! colspan="2" style="background:#FF0000; border-radius:3.25px;" align="center"|''Important Codex Wiki Articles''
|-
|width="15%" "background:grey; border-radius:3.25px;"|'''Important Pages'''
|[[The Codex Wiki]] - [[Site FAQ]] - [[The Codex:About|General Help Page]]- [[Tiering System]] - [[Civilization Tiering System]] - [[Codex Profile Rules|Rules for Codex Profiles]] - [[Common Editing Mistakes]] - [[Disclaimer]] - [[How to Handle Calculations]] - [[Universe]] - [[Multiverse]] - [[Omniverse]] - [[Projectile and Objects Feats]] - [[Dimensional Tiering Explanation]] - [[Common Terminology]] - [[Discussion Rules]] - [[Reference for Common Feats]] - [[Rules for Acceptable Profiles]] - [[Rules for Fanon Profiles]] - [[Misleading Titles]] - [[Mistranslations]] - [[Outside Wiki Standards]] - [[Statements]] - [[Verse Cosmology Categorizations]] - [[Fictional Universes]]
|-
|width="15%" "background:grey; border-radius:3.25px;"|'''Terminology'''
|[[Alignment]] - [[Status]] - [[Protection Level]] - [[Threat Level]] - [[Cardinality]] - [[Grade]] - [[Dimensionality]] - [[Attack Potency]] - [[Durability]] - [[Speed]] - [[Reactions]] - [[Lifting Strength]] - [[Striking Strength]] - [[Range]] - [[Intelligence]] - [[Knowledge]] - [[Powers and Techniques]] - [[State of Being]] - [[Physiology]] - [[Equipment]] - [[No Limits Fallacy]] - [[Omnipotence]] - [[Cinematic Time]] - [[Canon]] - [[Canon|Crossover]] - [[How to Handle Canon]] - [[Multipliers]] - [[Environmental Destruction]] - [[Bloodlust]] - [[Overtime Feats]] - [[Chain Reactions]] -[[Outside Help]] - [[Space]] - [[The Kardashev Scale]] - [[Infinity]] - [[Power Source]] - [[Light Speed]] - [[Requirements for Speed of Light/Faster Than Light Speeds]]
|-
|"background:grey; border-radius:3.25px;"|'''Standards'''
|[[Transcendence]] - [[Creation vs Destruction]] - [[Outlier]] - [[Ludonarrative Dissonance]] - [[Inconsistency]] - [[Plot-Induced Stupidity]] - [[Reality - Fiction Interaction]] - [[Powerscaling]] - [[Black Hole]] - [[Wormhole]] - [[Stabilization Feats]] - [[Merging Feats]] - [[Embodying Feats]] - [[Data World Standards]] - [[Dream World Standards]] - [[Standard Battle Assumptions]] - [[One-Shot]] - [[Speed Blitz]] - [[Penetration Damage]] - [[Blunt Force Damage]] - [[Death of the Author]] - [[Versus Threads]] - [[Information Pages]] - [[Light Dodging Feats]] - [[Lightning Standards]] - [[Void Standards]]
|-
|"background:grey; border-radius:3.25px;"|'''Formats'''
|[[Standard Format for Character Profiles]] - [[Standard Format for Factions]] - [[Standard Format for Cosmic Forces]] - [[Standard Format for Events]] - [[Standard Format for Verse Pages]] - [[Standard Format for Locations Profiles]] - [[Standard Format for Weapon Profiles]] - [[Standard Format for Powers and Abilities]] - [[Standard Format for Civilization Profiles]] - [[Standard Format for Category Names]] - [[Standard Templates For Tabbers]]
|-
|"background:grey; border-radius:3.25px;"|'''Fanon'''
|[[Fanon]] - [[Fanon/Community-Strongest-Character-Tier-List|Strongest Character Tier List]] - [[Fanon/Community-Weakest-Character-Tier-List|Weakest Character Tier List]] - [[Fanon/Strongest Smash Characters Tier List]]
|}
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[[File:13032018175757583156460.jpg|center|600px]]
==Introduction==
==Introduction==
'''Creation vs. Destruction''' is a constantly debated topic across the versus debating community, spanning hundreds of different opinions. While it is impossible to convince millions of how to treat these feats we will be supplying how they will work on this site.  
'''Creation vs. Destruction''' is a topic based off the yin and yang of the concepts '''[[Creation]]''' and '''[[Destruction]]'''. Which are dualistic opposites but often considered the same. This topic generally comes into the question of which is more impressive and more powerful, though more powerful does not intrinsically refer to physical strength but an impact it has on the world. For the simplicity of the viewers and we will be explaining [[Tiering System|tiering wise]] how this operates.


It should be noted however, downgrades of creation feats should not come solely because one feels that it’s weird for a verse to have this tier. If the feats are consistent, are not contradictory, and make sense in context they are fully usable. One should not try to remove the concept of creation feats solely because they cannot downgrade a verse that has a tier via creation, rather see if it’s consistent.
==Explanation==
 
==Creation Feats that are Acceptable==
Creation is defined as:
Creation is defined as:
*cre·a·tion
*cre·a·tion
Line 15: Line 33:
the bringing into of existence of the universe, especially when regarded as an act of God.
the bringing into of existence of the universe, especially when regarded as an act of God.


This thus means that if we accept bringing something into existence as a legitimate feat of creation, the feat should be done in a short [around 5 seconds or so] or instantaneous time frame to physically scale. This means if the feat is done via one’s own energy this is a completely valid feat. This alternatively means that we would assume if you could create let’s say a '''Multi-Solar System''' pocket dimension you would also have the energy required to punch at that level.  
Destruction is define as:
*de·struc·tion
/dəˈstrəkSH(ə)n/
noun
1.
the action or process of causing so much damage to something that it no longer exists or cannot be repaired.
2.
the action or process of killing or being killed.
 
With this two in mind we have a clear case of what these both act as. They are exact opposites, while creation brings into existence, destruction removes from existence. [https://education.nationalgeographic.org/resource/conservation-matter-during-physical-and-chemical-changes/ According to the law of conservation, matter cannot be '''created''' or '''destroyed'''], only changed. [https://www1.grc.nasa.gov/beginners-guide-to-aeronautics/first-law-conservation-of-energy/#:~:text=The%20conservation%20of%20energy%20is,is%20neither%20created%20nor%20destroyed This same ideology applies to energy]. Thus creating from nothing and destruction to nothing is already breaking the laws of physics and is essentially [[Reality Warping|manipulating reality]]. Though under simpler terms we normally list destruction as just destruction of the physical object we see and not all matter, so what if one creates from this standpoint? Do they receive the same tier? The answer becomes more complicated here.


Examples of Applicable Creation Feats:
Creation in itself is not done on a lesser simpler scale like destruction. As an example, one can destroy a building because it will not be reducing the entire makeup of the bulding to nothingness. While on the opposite side, creating the building in most cases, would only apply to creating the building from nothing. In this case, this cannot be a use of energy, as energy cannot be created or destroyed, and breaks the laws of physics, thus it would fall under [[Reality Warping]], and not be a tierable feat.  
*[https://youtu.be/sdfxGUHNxeg?list=PL5EF4B88744859C08&t=142 Vaati creating a realm with stars and nebulae].
*[https://youtu.be/Pzi1f87zXG4 Shadow Mewtwo creating the Dark Coliseum].


What about for scenarios where an omnipotent creator god made the universe? In this case these types of beings would receive an '''Unknown''' as these beings cannot be properly defined and thus putting them simply at a tier through creation, which we don't list as AP would be essentially lowballing from what they have shown to create.


==Creations Feats that are not Acceptable==
There are cases where creation can be used viable for it's own tier, in this case it would be: "X Tier physically, X tier with '''[[Creation]]''':
If a character has a visual feat that is extremely vague and clearly there just for flare it is not considered a valid creation feat. This also extends to [[Illusion Creation|illusions that fall under Type 1]]. This could also include a character doing a transformation transition and stars suddenly appearing in the background, this is merely a visual effect and isn’t actually happening in-universe (do note characters acknowledging this would not suddenly prove the visual effect true as that would just be [[Breaking_the_Fourth_Wall|4th wall awareness]]. The only exception is if they directly state the person did indeed create that background).  
*Creation in works where it's directly noted someone is using energy to do said feat would be something that would scale, as in this case the fiction is acknowledging that they're using the scalar quantity to create the object.
*[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass–energy_equivalence Creation through the process of mass-energy conversion would be applicable as this directly utilizes energy].


Examples of Non-Applicable Creation Feats:
Completely unviable scales of creation feats are:
*[https://youtu.be/KPdJ19bhIIs?t=27 Fire Emblem mages making a galaxy-like background with their attacks].  
*'''Background Feats:''' Background feats are when a character scaling to a creation feat is based off something in the background. If the character does a white flash of light and a background with stars are made, then that's fine to scale to physicals. However if the background has the area slowly overtime create the area or a character enters this dungeon, and happens to enter a room with stars in it, neither of these should scale.
*'''Off Screen Creation:''' Off screen creation has the similar scrutiny to background feats, for these it should be naturally shown characters are more similarly of this level, usually characters that are creator gods get a pass as their cosmic nature would mean they physically scale to the feat. However, other characters need further context. Context includes, destruction feats on this level or [[Stabilization Feats|legitimate sustaining feats]].
*'''Creation through [[Hax]]:''' Creation through hax should not scale to physicals unless the hax in question directly scales to the persons physicals.
*'''Illusions:''' This could also include a character doing a transformation transition and stars suddenly appearing in the background, this is merely a visual effect and isn’t actually happening in-universe (do note characters acknowledging this would not suddenly prove the visual effect true as that would just be [[Breaking_the_Fourth_Wall|4th wall awareness]]).
*'''Vagueness:''' If a character has a visual feat that is extremely vague and clearly there just for flare it is not considered a valid creation feat. Examples of these are things such as characters in series having a transformation sequence that shows a starry sky in the background or the like.


==Examples==
Examples of Unknown Omnipotent Creator Gods:
*'''[https://youtu.be/r4tHItL1xLs The Golden Goddesses creating the multiverse]:''' The Golden Goddesses are omnipotent creator gods, where even their relic, The Triforce, is considered an omnipotent artifact.


===Disclaimer===
Examples of Applicable Creation Feats For Their Own Tier:
There have been arguments saying creation feats shouldn’t scale to physical AP because there are too many anti feats for it or the author wasn’t thinking of that, these two arguments are disingenuous to full context. Yes the author generally does not interpret creation feats as the tier they are, but contrary to popular belief, authors don’t intend a character even with destruction feats to be the level they are. Characters such as Golden Frieza scale to [[Son Goku|Goku]] who is universal but then the writers specifically write in Frieza [https://youtu.be/1CDRLjnpPYI?t=115 believing he will harm a person with an attack meant to destroy a planet] or alternatively [https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/debatesjungle/images/6/6b/5969413-db_twitter_2.png/revision/latest?cb=20200527205029 a writer from Toei directly saying Goku could only possibly destroy the universe if he became a god of destruction]. This is a clear showing of Toei not caring about levels or feats portrayed but rather just style over substance. Another example is [https://youtu.be/c4YIQ_POds4?t=375 Butch Hartman legitimately admitting he didn’t realize a cloud dispersion feat was impressive]. In Xenoblade 2 [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEcAksVORvI&feature=youtu.be&t=91 there’s a direct statement that Pyra sank three continents], this would be an extremely blatant feat [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpI0M3lJCTY&feature=youtu.be&t=81 yet the authors later on make her unable to break through a wall]. Yajirou Kojima from Grenadier [https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/771282189069451284/781620241988976690/7.png could cut] [https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/771282189069451284/781620282862338082/8.png a missle in half] [https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/597194697500524544/781631460242096178/11.png yet thought he wouldn’t be able to cut through a boulder]. Jimmy Hopkins from Bully [[w:c:vsbattles:User_blog:Mr._Bambu/Bully_Calc:_Smash_It_Up|can punch marble pillars and turn them into dust]], [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIYj6QixlVU&feature=youtu.be&t=102 takes no real damage from being hit with a sledgehammer through a wall], and many more objective wall feats yet a huge part of a mission is that he can’t break through regular wooden planks and needs the sledgehammer to do it. Then there are DC Writers that believe Superman is below planet despite the various higher physical feats he’s pulled over the decades. There are many more but these are just examples of very blatant showings where still the author doesn’t realize a character is actually at a level, this is one of the major reasons [[Plot-Induced Stupidity]], [[Inconsistency|Inconsistencies]], and [[Outlier]] exist not because of creation feats but primarily destruction feats. To simply argue that creation feats aren’t useable because they have anti feats behind them is dishonest to destruction feats having the exact same problem, no fictional verse will ever be perfect, all of them will have anti feats, this is a common ideology, what should be taken is the most consistent amount of feats and viewing how a tier will work for the verse. Creation feats are valid feats and always will be, whether or not it will scale to someone or is consistent to use should be the discussion/topic for the verse, not the validity of creation = destruction.
*'''[https://youtu.be/Nx6DC7b8w5s?t=438 Vaati creating a realm with stars and nebulae]:''' Here Vaati directly says "Now, you will see the '''true power of the Light Force''' and proceeds to create a realm, thus we can apply that energy has been used to create this realm as he denotes this is due to the power of the Light Force, [https://i.imgur.com/mpspB8T.jpg which is directly noted in the Zelda universe to have "infinite power"] further showing this is using energy.
*'''[https://youtu.be/r4tHItL1xLs Zone Guardians creating their zones in OFF]:''' In ''OFF'' Zone Guardians are [https://youtu.be/f3_jPtdTagk?list=PL-3x_VeAzDzeIsLUQ6DSSq7EucMnuR9sy&t=2255 drawing from the infinite power of the Sun] and converting it into energy to create their zones, thus they apply to mass-energy conversion.


There are also concessions we must take naturally with tiering fictional verses, one of the major one’s being the law of conservation of mass which states: “Mass in an isolated system is neither created nor destroyed by chemical reactions or physical transformations.” Though this is consistently contradicted in fiction. If we truly want to follow this, we should also follow the ideology that traveling past the speed of light [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faster-than-light should require no mass, completely destroy causality, etcetera]. There will never be a perfect method to tiering fiction but attempting to apply every realistic application to a form of medium that is the opposite of real would be bad practice.
Examples of Non-Applicable Creation Feats:
*[https://youtu.be/KPdJ19bhIIs?t=27 Fire Emblem mages making a galaxy-like background with their attacks].  
*[https://youtu.be/hbLtKMILJUM Kirby from ''Kirby of the Stars'' having stars in the background during his transformation sequence].


===Note===
===Note===
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*Do also note for debates such as starry sky creations if the background shown is outer space and contains objects that look like stars it is fine to assume them stars, especially if they contain nebulae in them.
*Do also note for debates such as starry sky creations if the background shown is outer space and contains objects that look like stars it is fine to assume them stars, especially if they contain nebulae in them.


*Do note while [[Pocket Reality Manipulation|Pocket Realities]] do normally in theories fall under different laws of physics, if the pocket reality shown in question still operates under our world’s gravity and such we will assume the feat is equal to if someone did it outside of a pocket reality.
*Do note while [[Pocket Reality Manipulation|Pocket Realities]] do normally in theories fall under different laws of physics, if the pocket reality shown in question still operates under our world’s gravity and such we will assume the feat is equal to if someone did it outside of a pocket reality. The other argumentation that a character might be stronger in a pocket reality will also be taken into account, however if the other characters beats them in the pocket reality just as they did outside of the pocket reality, then it will not be assumed they're that much stronger.


[[Category:Important]]
[[Category:Important]]
{{Discussions}}

Latest revision as of 17:02, 11 October 2024

Important Codex Wiki Articles
Important Pages The Codex Wiki - Site FAQ - General Help Page- Tiering System - Civilization Tiering System - Rules for Codex Profiles - Common Editing Mistakes - Disclaimer - How to Handle Calculations - Universe - Multiverse - Omniverse - Projectile and Objects Feats - Dimensional Tiering Explanation - Common Terminology - Discussion Rules - Reference for Common Feats - Rules for Acceptable Profiles - Rules for Fanon Profiles - Misleading Titles - Mistranslations - Outside Wiki Standards - Statements - Verse Cosmology Categorizations - Fictional Universes
Terminology Alignment - Status - Protection Level - Threat Level - Cardinality - Grade - Dimensionality - Attack Potency - Durability - Speed - Reactions - Lifting Strength - Striking Strength - Range - Intelligence - Knowledge - Powers and Techniques - State of Being - Physiology - Equipment - No Limits Fallacy - Omnipotence - Cinematic Time - Canon - Crossover - How to Handle Canon - Multipliers - Environmental Destruction - Bloodlust - Overtime Feats - Chain Reactions -Outside Help - Space - The Kardashev Scale - Infinity - Power Source - Light Speed - Requirements for Speed of Light/Faster Than Light Speeds
Standards Transcendence - Creation vs Destruction - Outlier - Ludonarrative Dissonance - Inconsistency - Plot-Induced Stupidity - Reality - Fiction Interaction - Powerscaling - Black Hole - Wormhole - Stabilization Feats - Merging Feats - Embodying Feats - Data World Standards - Dream World Standards - Standard Battle Assumptions - One-Shot - Speed Blitz - Penetration Damage - Blunt Force Damage - Death of the Author - Versus Threads - Information Pages - Light Dodging Feats - Lightning Standards - Void Standards
Formats Standard Format for Character Profiles - Standard Format for Factions - Standard Format for Cosmic Forces - Standard Format for Events - Standard Format for Verse Pages - Standard Format for Locations Profiles - Standard Format for Weapon Profiles - Standard Format for Powers and Abilities - Standard Format for Civilization Profiles - Standard Format for Category Names - Standard Templates For Tabbers
Fanon Fanon - Strongest Character Tier List - Weakest Character Tier List - Fanon/Strongest Smash Characters Tier List


Introduction

Creation vs. Destruction is a topic based off the yin and yang of the concepts Creation and Destruction. Which are dualistic opposites but often considered the same. This topic generally comes into the question of which is more impressive and more powerful, though more powerful does not intrinsically refer to physical strength but an impact it has on the world. For the simplicity of the viewers and we will be explaining tiering wise how this operates.

Explanation

Creation is defined as:

  • cre·a·tion

/krēˈāSH(ə)n/ noun 1. the action or process of bringing something into existence. 2. the bringing into of existence of the universe, especially when regarded as an act of God.

Destruction is define as:

  • de·struc·tion

/dəˈstrəkSH(ə)n/ noun 1. the action or process of causing so much damage to something that it no longer exists or cannot be repaired. 2. the action or process of killing or being killed.

With this two in mind we have a clear case of what these both act as. They are exact opposites, while creation brings into existence, destruction removes from existence. According to the law of conservation, matter cannot be created or destroyed, only changed. This same ideology applies to energy. Thus creating from nothing and destruction to nothing is already breaking the laws of physics and is essentially manipulating reality. Though under simpler terms we normally list destruction as just destruction of the physical object we see and not all matter, so what if one creates from this standpoint? Do they receive the same tier? The answer becomes more complicated here.

Creation in itself is not done on a lesser simpler scale like destruction. As an example, one can destroy a building because it will not be reducing the entire makeup of the bulding to nothingness. While on the opposite side, creating the building in most cases, would only apply to creating the building from nothing. In this case, this cannot be a use of energy, as energy cannot be created or destroyed, and breaks the laws of physics, thus it would fall under Reality Warping, and not be a tierable feat.

What about for scenarios where an omnipotent creator god made the universe? In this case these types of beings would receive an Unknown as these beings cannot be properly defined and thus putting them simply at a tier through creation, which we don't list as AP would be essentially lowballing from what they have shown to create.

There are cases where creation can be used viable for it's own tier, in this case it would be: "X Tier physically, X tier with Creation:

Completely unviable scales of creation feats are:

  • Background Feats: Background feats are when a character scaling to a creation feat is based off something in the background. If the character does a white flash of light and a background with stars are made, then that's fine to scale to physicals. However if the background has the area slowly overtime create the area or a character enters this dungeon, and happens to enter a room with stars in it, neither of these should scale.
  • Off Screen Creation: Off screen creation has the similar scrutiny to background feats, for these it should be naturally shown characters are more similarly of this level, usually characters that are creator gods get a pass as their cosmic nature would mean they physically scale to the feat. However, other characters need further context. Context includes, destruction feats on this level or legitimate sustaining feats.
  • Creation through Hax: Creation through hax should not scale to physicals unless the hax in question directly scales to the persons physicals.
  • Illusions: This could also include a character doing a transformation transition and stars suddenly appearing in the background, this is merely a visual effect and isn’t actually happening in-universe (do note characters acknowledging this would not suddenly prove the visual effect true as that would just be 4th wall awareness).
  • Vagueness: If a character has a visual feat that is extremely vague and clearly there just for flare it is not considered a valid creation feat. Examples of these are things such as characters in series having a transformation sequence that shows a starry sky in the background or the like.

Examples

Examples of Unknown Omnipotent Creator Gods:

Examples of Applicable Creation Feats For Their Own Tier:

Examples of Non-Applicable Creation Feats:

Note

  • Do note that arguments such as “creation of a house isn’t 8-C” does not work in this case as the creation of a house is done via various tools and objects of construction that is done over a very long period of time and is nothing like creating something from your own energy in an instant, thus this argument is a false equivalence.
  • Do also note for debates such as starry sky creations if the background shown is outer space and contains objects that look like stars it is fine to assume them stars, especially if they contain nebulae in them.
  • Do note while Pocket Realities do normally in theories fall under different laws of physics, if the pocket reality shown in question still operates under our world’s gravity and such we will assume the feat is equal to if someone did it outside of a pocket reality. The other argumentation that a character might be stronger in a pocket reality will also be taken into account, however if the other characters beats them in the pocket reality just as they did outside of the pocket reality, then it will not be assumed they're that much stronger.